[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by TM
Warren, please consider:

The decision balk or play and the BOT-decision are two different plays.

They are indeed two different decisions, but they are both part of the same play that commenced with the pitcher starting his delivery and ended with the successful appeal for batting out of turn. The appeal is simply a request for the umpire to rule on whether the play was completed legitimately or not.

Originally posted by TM
Imagine the situation as the umpire:
We're at the time when the walk just happened.
You have to decide, stands the balk or the play.
You know NOTHING about the BOT, you don't know if the defence will make a BOT appeal!!

You have now to decide: balk or play (of course by OR 8.05 penalty).

This is part of the problem, TM. You haven't gone back far enough in the action. The balk penalty says the ball is DEAD immediately the balk is committed - ie BEFORE the following pitch became a ball - but we delay that dead ball only to see if the offense can ADVANCE on any following play even more than the minimum one base the balk penalty would allow.

On the play that followed THIS balk, the offense did NOT advance because the play was ruled illegal on appeal under 6.07(a). Enforce the balk. R1 stays at 2nd under 6.07(b.2)Note.

Note the use of the word "ADVANCE" in relation to runners in the balk Penalty, as opposed to "REACH" in relation to the batter-runner. That word has a very specific meaning. If R1 ends up back at 1st base then he did not "ADVANCE" at least one base on the play. Oh sure, he walked to 2nd and then was called back, but he did not "ADVANCE".

Originally posted by TM
Remember, whatever you decide, the other way will be thrown out of the window completly.
If the balk stands, no part of the play will have any effects.
If the play stands, the balk will be nullified COMPLETLY and FOREVER.
You can't have him back.

So, after the BOT appeal, there is no balk at all any more and so no way to use it to put the runner on 2nd.

There are no loops!

TM

Everything you said was true up until you drew the conclusion "So, after the BOT appeal, there is no balk at all any more and so no way to use it to put the runner on 2nd." That conclusion is NOT supported by the rules. The balk happened FIRST. It takes precedence over ALL action that follows. The ball is technically dead immediately the balk was committed, according to 8.05 Penalty, but any following play is allowed to proceed in case the offense can make more bases than the balk penalty would allow. That "play" does NOT end when the improper batter reaches 1st base on the base on balls. It only ends when the results of the defensive BOT appeal are known.

Inherent in the rules is that all advances on the base path must be LEGAL. There can be no legal advance if an appeal against that advance is subsequently upheld. With no legal advance you must enforce the balk.

1. The improper batter "reached" 1st base on the walk, but
2. that was declared an illegal advance on appeal so
3. the advance made by R1 on the walk was cancelled.
4. Since R1 did not advance on the walk he is now entitled to advance on the balk penalty.

TM you cannot use one defensive error - ie the unintentional base on balls - to cancel the effects of another defensive error that occurred first - ie the balk. The moment the balk is committed R1 is entitled to advance to 2nd base. The only way that doesn't happen as a Penalty for the balk is if R1 gets to advance legally at least that far for some other reason. Walking to 2nd and being called back does NOT constitute an "advance" within the meaning of the rules.

Hope this helps

Cheers