Quote:
Originally posted by wpiced
Excellent question by SC UMP. But, the variable answers tend to be confusing. It seems to me that it doesn't matter if R1 touches or misses 2B, if the ball goes to first and BR is put out, there will never be a force.
...[snip]...
It just seems to me that if BR is put out at 1B, there could never be a forced play anywhere at any time.
Shoot! I'm confused just trying to ask the question!
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I'm not greymule, so I won't try to explain his reasoning, but I think I can help with understanding the rules on this question.
OBR 7.08(e) says in part:
...if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out.
That says that the force condition is removed at the precise moment that the following runner is put out, and that is what creates the timing dilemma for the umpire. That is why you can have a Reverse Force double play - see OBR 2.00 for the definition.
The general understanding of whether an appeal out may also be a force out comes from OBR 7.12, which says in part:
If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following the runner called out shall score. If such a third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.
That says that appeal outs can also be force outs if the conditions that gave rise to the appeal occurred when a force play was in effect.
Put those two rules together and you get greymule's assertion that, for OBR at least, if the force play was in effect when the base was missed then the appeal is a force out BUT if the force was removed before the base was missed then the appeal out is only a time play.
If the batter-runner is put out at first base to remove the force condition then you are correct - there can be no force out, on appeal or otherwise, occurring
AFTER that act. The issue here was that it was perfectly possible for the runner to miss the base
BEFORE the force condition was removed, so making any subsequent appeal at that base a force out.
Hope this helps
Cheers
[Edited by Warren Willson on Sep 17th, 2003 at 02:17 AM]