Missed request. Two-man.

mick · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 08:58pm

Girls V.; two-man; 1:52 4th; Red Shootin' 2nd of 1-1; I'm Lead table side. Red up by 4.
Ball goes in, helter-skelter under the bucket and Red is pressing hard.
Gold pushes ball across half-court and throws it away at Gold bench. Red ball!

As I'm turning to go opposite Lead, Red coach says, "Mick, I wanted a time out after she made that. You gotta give me that!"

I said, "Sorry, Coach, but I was kinda busy watchin' other stuff."

Aside from the fact that if we see the request we honor it, which official do you hold reponsible to see that request?

Subsequently, three times, after the missed request, Red Coach had a guard go to Trail to ask for a time-out, prior to the 2nd shot "if the second goes in". We each said okay as she stood beside us.

mick

Back In The Saddle · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 10:06pm

I think the trail has to get this. He/she is the one that is looking nearest that direction during the free throw, and probably ought to glance tableward for a possible substitute on the made free throw anyway. However, with the shooter, two players on the far lane, and at least three players behind the arc, his/her plate is pretty full already. Add in a quick inbounds and a press to help out on, and it only gets worse.

Dan_ref · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 10:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Girls V.; two-man; 1:52 4th; Red Shootin' 2nd of 1-1; I'm Lead table side. Red up by 4.
Ball goes in, helter-skelter under the bucket and Red is pressing hard.
Gold pushes ball across half-court and throws it away at Gold bench. Red ball!

As I'm turning to go opposite Lead, Red coach says, "Mick, I wanted a time out after she made that. You gotta give me that!"

I said, "Sorry, Coach, but I was kinda busy watchin' other stuff."

Aside from the fact that if we see the request we honor it, which official do you hold reponsible to see that request?

Subsequently, three times, after the missed request, Red Coach had a guard go to Trail to ask for a time-out, prior to the 2nd shot "if the second goes in". We each said okay as she stood beside us.

mick

Either L or T, doesn't matter, maybe depends on where the action is. Seems your coach friend eventually figured out how this stuff works.

Nevadaref · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 06:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
which official do you hold reponsible to see that request?

Neither! It is the responsibility of the coach and players to get the attention of the officials when they want a TO. It seems that this coach figured out how to do that quite well.

APHP · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 08:18am

Concerning this same subject.....what do you say to the coach/player who says "if the shot is made I want a timeout". Do you require them to request it again "after" the shot is made...or do you grant it without them asking again after the shot is made??

NCAAREF · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 08:44am

I have to disagree with Nevada. An official should be aware of what might take place near the end of a close game regarding which team might want to call a TO, etc. The trail in this instance should have glanced toward the respective benches looking for a possible TO request by either coach in the event that the FT is good. Many times as trail in this situation when I look toward the bench, I have had a coach non verbally indicate to me that if the FT is good he or she wants a TO. It's all part of what I call preventive officiating. Be prepared for the situation and prevent any problems whenever possible.

ChuckElias · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 09:34am

Quote:

Originally posted by NCAAREF
The trail in this instance should have glanced toward the respective benches looking for a possible TO request by either coach in the event that the FT is good.

In this particluar instance, you're probably right. But, in general, Nevada is right, I think. If the action is right in front of the official, his/her responsibility is the play. In this case, it doesn't sound like there was heavy pressure right in front of the Trail, so s/he probably should've taken a peek at the bench.

But my own opinion is that an official's first responsibility is to the play on the court. Granting a coach's request for TO is a courtesy, when conditions allow it.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 11:28am

This is all on the coach to get the attention of the ref. The ref might not see or hear them in a very loud and packed gym. Yes, the officials should be looking, but we are not going to be staring at the bench to try to figure out if they are calling for a timeout or not. Coaches have lost all common sense and stopped having their players request timeouts, especially when our attention is mainly go to be where the players are. The need to be like football, the coaches cannot timeout. Or at the very least, say during a live ball or with the clock running they cannot call a timeout.

Peace

Mlancaster · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 11:47am

I agree with NCAAREF. As a part of Game Management skills, an official must know what is going on around him/her and be able to anticipate these calls. It should become 2nd nature for an official to know how close the score is, time remaining, etc., and know when to glance at the bench. I do not agree that a time out is a courtesy, but is a right. You have an obligation to grant a time out if it is called.

Granted, I am more used to 3 person crews, and it is somewhat easier to watch for these types of things, but these are the types of things that should be addressed in a pre-game.

Camron Rust · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 12:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by APHP
Concerning this same subject.....what do you say to the coach/player who says "if the shot is made I want a timeout". Do you require them to request it again "after" the shot is made...or do you grant it without them asking again after the shot is made??

I tell them that I'll certainly be alert for it, but they need to make some indication that they still want it at the time.

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mlancaster
I do not agree that a time out is a courtesy, but is a right. You have an obligation to grant a time out if it is called.

Ok, I'm gonna nit-pick. Obviously, you're going to grant the TO if it's called. . . b/c only the official can call a TO. The coach can request it, yadda, yadda.

Now to my real point. All I meant to say in using the word "courtesy" is that looking at the coach is always, always a second priority to looking at the players on the floor.

Maybe we just have a difference of opinion, but I don't think the coach has a "right" to having an official watching the bench at all times for a TO signal. If there intense action in front of the closest official, and nobody can hear a verbal request, then you know what? You don't get the TO b/c I'm not taking my eyes off this play. Hopefully, your player is smart enough to run to me with the request.

IF I can check the bench without sacrificing court coverage, then I will check the bench. And let's face it, most of the time at least one of the three officials can sneak a peek

But there will be times -- especially in 2-whistle mechanics -- where it will not be possible. In those situations, the coach is basically in the same boat as s/he was 5 or 6 years ago when coaches couldn't request TOs at all.

As always, just my opinion.

Dan_ref · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Mlancaster
I do not agree that a time out is a courtesy, but is a right. You have an obligation to grant a time out if it is called.

Ok, I'm gonna nit-pick. Obviously, you're going to grant the TO if it's called. . . b/c only the official can call a TO. The coach can request it, yadda, yadda.

Now to my real point. All I meant to say in using the word "courtesy" is that looking at the coach is always, always a second priority to looking at the players on the floor.

Maybe we just have a difference of opinion, but I don't think the coach has a "right" to having an official watching the bench at all times for a TO signal. If there intense action in front of the closest official, and nobody can hear a verbal request, then you know what? You don't get the TO b/c I'm not taking my eyes off this play. Hopefully, your player is smart enough to run to me with the request.

IF I can check the bench without sacrificing court coverage, then I will check the bench. And let's face it, most of the time at least one of the three officials can sneak a peek

But there will be times -- especially in 2-whistle mechanics -- where it will not be possible. In those situations, the coach is basically in the same boat as s/he was 5 or 6 years ago when coaches couldn't request TOs at all.

As always, just my opinion.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one Chuck. The sitch was a TO requested after a made FT. More than likely the coach was standing up already giving Mick a T before the ball was shot. More than likely one of the 2 guys had an opportunity after the ball went in to glance over to table side. Someone probably should have realized a TO might be coming and glanced over. Not much else going on normaly at this time.

ChuckElias · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I'm going to disagree with you on this one Chuck. The sitch was a TO requested after a made FT. More than likely the coach was standing up already giving Mick a T before the ball was shot.

Dan, from one of my previous posts in this thread:

Quote:

In this case, it doesn't sound like there was heavy pressure right in front of the Trail, so s/he probably should've taken a peek at the bench.

I think we agree. In this case, somebody should've been able to sneak a peek. My only point in the last post was that we don't always owe the coach that peek if it means taking our eyes off play.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Sep 17th, 2003 at 01:35 PM]

Mlancaster · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 02:13pm

Quote:

My only point in the last post was that we don't always owe the coach that peek if it means taking our eyes off play

I'll buy that....and you are right, if a coach really wants that TO he'll make damn sure that he is SEEN and HEARD.

And there is no doubt that the 3 person crew has an avantage here.

Hawks Coach · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 02:35pm

I can tell you that I have a voice that can easily be heard, I use my loud voice for coaching and requesting timeouts (not for yelling at refs), and I visually and loudly call for timeouts in obvious timeout situations. I have, nevertheless, been ignored by officials for as long as 5-10 seconds, even in relatively quiet gyms. I have never been ignored by any official that I thought had a handle on the game, even when the gym was loud. This problem generally occurs with oficials who get tunnel vision and are not actively thinking about game situations.

I do consider it to be an element of game management to anticipate the situations where a coach might want a TO and to have your ears tuned in for it (while keeping eyes on court). You hear the request, you look over quickly, you see me, you award it. That simple.

I know that there is a lot to do and I don't want your job, beieve me. And I am not aout to suggest that this comes easily. But I believe it is something that you should work on in terms of awareness, not just say if I don't hear it, oh well, that's the coach's problem.