NCAA shot clock question

[Scrapper1]

During a loose ball while Team A has team control, A1 and B1 bat the ball simultaneously and the ball passes through the basket from below.

The AP arrow favors Team A. Do we reset the shot clock?

I think we do, because the shot clock rules say to reset on a violation, with a few exceptions. But one of the exceptions is when the ball is knocked out of bounds simultaneously by opponents and the arrow favors the team that had control.

So the play in question doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the "violation" rule and doesn't fit the letter of the "out of bounds" rule.

So do we reset or no?

[Lotto]

No reset.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Lotto

No reset.

Rationale? Case play?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Rationale? Case play?

Ball didn't hit the rim. Team Control was never terminated. We have a situation that is handled with an AP arrow giving the ball back to the offense. What rationale would you have TO RESET the shot clock.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Ball didn't hit the rim. Team Control was never terminated. We have a situation that is handled with an AP arrow giving the ball back to the offense. What rationale would you have TO RESET the shot clock.

The rules say to reset on a violation.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The rules say to reset on a violation.

If the violation was on the defense. This is a POI issue where the POI is the AP arrow and the ball goes back to the offense.

the rule also says that on a violation by the offense the ball is given to the defense, but you are only applying only one half the logic here. Both sides violated hence the AP.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The rules say to reset on a violation.

It's not reset on all kick balls. It's not reset on an OOB violation. It's not reset on double fouls.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

During a loose ball while Team A has team control, A1 and B1 bat the ball simultaneously and the ball passes through the basket from below.

Are you allowed to rule that way?

6-3 (AP Situations) and 7-3 allow for simultaneous touching on OOB, but I don't recall anything similar for "kicking, fisting or through the basket from below"

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Are you allowed to rule that way?

6-3 (AP Situations) and 7-3 allow for simultaneous touching on OOB, but I don't recall anything similar for "kicking, fisting or through the basket from below"

And in cases where there is no explicit rulings common sense and application of similar type situations would best apply IMO.

These situations are very rare, I haven't seen this in over 10 years of work, but I would feel comfortable to go to the POI and let my assignor/association make a formal ruling on what should be done after the fact.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

And in cases where there is no explicit rulings common sense and application of similar type situations would best apply IMO.

These situations are very rare, I haven't seen this in over 10 years of work, but I would feel comfortable to go to the POI and let my assignor/association make a formal ruling on what should be done after the fact.

As long as we agree that it's a 2-3 (elastic clause) situation ...

[twocentsworth]

Keep in mind, per NCAA-M rules, the shot clock resets when a legitimate shot hits the rim.....NOT a passed, batted, or deflected ball hits the rim. The NBA rule is much easier....ball hits rim = reset, no matter what. NCAA-M requires shot vs no-shot judgement from shot clock operator.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The rules say to reset on a violation.

Originally Posted by deecee

If the violation was on the defense.

That's not what the rule says. I don't have my rulebook handy, but if you look up the rule (I think it's 2-11), it clearly says to reset after a violation. There are, of course, some exceptions in the next article of the rule; but this doesn't seem to be one of them.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

A1 and B1 bat the ball simultaneously and the ball passes through the basket from below.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Are you allowed to rule that way?

6-3 (AP Situations) and 7-3 allow for simultaneous touching on OOB, but I don't recall anything similar for "kicking, fisting or through the basket from below"

Fair point. So suppose that you simply can't determine who touched it last. You'd have to go to the arrow, right?

This play, btw, actually happened in a high school game around here last season.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is a POI issue where the POI is the AP arrow

Originally Posted by deecee

I would feel comfortable to go to the POI and let my assignor/association make a formal ruling on what should be done after the fact.

What makes this a POI situation? It's not an accidental whistle, a double foul, or a correctable error. So while I agree that we have to go to the arrow, I don't think it's technically a POI situation.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

What makes this a POI situation? It's not an accidental whistle, a double foul, or a correctable error. So while I agree that we have to go to the arrow, I don't think it's technically a POI situation.

How do you figure its NOT a POI here? If the offense causes the ball to go through the bottom of the basket does that carry the same penalty as if the defense were to do it?

So you have a simultaneous violation do we not? There is an argument that makes sense for an AP throw in, however since there is no ruling here I would feel more comfortable going to the POI and letting my rules assignor/NFHS rules committee (whomever above me) make a formal ruling. But if someone were to rather go AP then I cannot really disagree with them. Here both sides of the coin are valid.