Un-pulled foot
 

New thread so as not to hijack Andy's question about un-ringing a swing.

BU in C, play at 1B, BU calls "Off the base - Safe".
Coach follows procedure and asks BU to go for help from PU.

I was PU and was reluctant to give any answer to BU; i.e the conversation is not happening.

UIC who was near by was called over, and stated that PU absolutely may help BU un-pull a foot, so I did it. :o

I was (at still am) of the opinion that if BU called a pulled foot, he saw a pulled foot. And that no way PU can un-pull the foot. How can someone help un-see something?


Thoughts?

It seems to me that happens all the time and BU correctly went with pulled/safe or not sure/safe before asking.

Maybe I'm not understanding your concern, but I can certainly envision where a BU from C (and even B) might guess that F3 didn't stay on the bag when she made a huge stretch for the ball when the BU didn't have a decent angle to see for sure, and the PU sees that she did. If you saw with 100% surety that F3 maintained contact, but your partner felt otherwise, why wouldn't you want to give him/her what you clearly had?

Manny, that BU "guessed" the pulled foot, is exactly my concern.
As BU, if i am not certain about a pulled foot, and the ball beats BR to 1B, I call the Out and let the BU come to PU for help on a pulled foot. Not the other way around.

See, I was always taught not to guess off the bag; if the ball beat the runner, call the out. Everyone knows to make that appeal when appropriate, everyone knows that PU will answer if he sees the foot off.

This reverse handling seems awkward; the "off the bag" should be an affirmative ruling that was actually seen. I understand Tony's feeling of ruling the opposite of what BU "saw", as opposed to adding a piece of the puzzle.

yep, the "off the bag" call should only be made if BU actually saw daylight between foot and bag.

I'm at the 3B end of a 3B-HP rundown. As runner dives back to 3B, fielder dives too. I'm at 90 degrees to the play, & clearly see 2" of daylight between glove and foot.

DC (in 1B dugout, so at 3B line extended), absolutely sure of the tag, begs me to check with my partner (at the HP end of the rundown).

Sure I'll ask, coach, but he'll never convince me I didn't see space...

Then you should just told the coach "no", that you had everything you needed to make that call.

+1

Yet another example of the benefit of just asking in the first place. Get the call right to begin with and you can likely eliminate all of this nonsense and waste of time.

Lets say F3 did come off the bag, then came back down on it before B/R arrived at 1st base but BU did not see that !. As a base ump if I want help from PU, I would certainly like to know my PU was paying attention & willing to help. (If I ask for it).

Like a broken record with more faults than a blind tennis player.

What's broken is the mechanic. Consider what happened that lead to this thread. There's something broken here alright...

What lead to this thread was the OP not knowing he could help with the PF call. :rolleyes:

And still doesn't.

You should. There is no mechanic or restrictions which prohibit partners discussing a play or asking for help. May not be the wisest thing to do, but it can be done.

Remember, you control the information being offered your partner. Personally, I'm in the camp of not presuming every "what if" scenario on a play. I call what my eyes tell my brain they saw. Not saying the two always work in perfect harmony, but I'm not going to second guess my brain because something may or may not have occurred.

That's OK. We have that covered here! :D

Ya think? :)

If I understand correctly (a stretch, I know), then I am glad I made this a separate thread and not included it in Andy's thread about un-ringing a swing. I thought there would be similarities.

My comprehension in summarizing the two threads:

1. PU sees and calls a swing that BU knows was not a swing.
We eat that call.

2. BU sees and calls a pulled foot that PU knows was not a pulled foot.
We can change that call.

Aren't both situations here judgement calls?

Here is where I am confused.
Isn't going for help to ask for missing information?
Rather than a 2nd opinion about a judgement?

If the latter, where do we draw the line? (Assuming there is a line to draw)

Please advise.

The logical similarity is there as you say, but we treat a swing called a strike as unchangeable; even though we will change a non-swing call to a swing with help. Not necessarily logical, not in the "book", just umpiring.
I think I commented on the reasoning in the other topic.

A pulled foot change (either way) is the same as any play; like either the runner or fielder missing the base or a trap/catch when the partner has a better angle. Or a missed tag (me yesterday).

"Was her foot on the bag?" is asking for a missing piece of information needed to make a call.


"What did you have on that call?" is asking for a second opinion on a judgement.

One thing that I was taught as a general rule is that when you go to your partner for help, you ask a question that will have a YES or NO answer.

Was the foot on the base?
Do you have a tag?
Did she bobble the ball?

By doing this, you are not asking for an opinion on your judgment, you are asking for a missing "piece of the puzzle" necessary to make that judgement

Agree, as specific as possible. :cool:

Also, the partner should say nothing until asked and only what is asked.
Also, just umpires in the conversation.
:rolleyes:

Quickest way for a partner to tick me off is to come to me for help and say "Whatcha got?" After a few years I finally figured out the answer should have been, "High blood pressure from fielding stupid questions from my partner!" :)

To me this is the one time that we "don't guess an out". In most instances were are taught that unless we are 100% sure of an out, the call is safe. In this instance the best thing to do is call the runner out unless you are 100% of the pulled foot. Then if the offensive coach thinks there was a pulled foot you can go to the PU for help on the call. If you call the pulled foot you have to be 100% sure of the pulled foot, then the PU shouldn't have anything to change the call.

I was discussing this with an occasional partner a few weeks ago; I like his standard answer: "I got what you got."

Honestly, the only way I can envision PU helping "unpull" the foot is if the BU positively saw the foot pull, but was straightlined when the fielder tried to reach that foot BACK toward the base, and needed help confirming whether she got her foot back in time (or at all).

But even there it's problematical, for all the reasons mentioned above.