Helping a partner with his call
 

One from this weekend has been on my mind a while.
I'm behind the plate when R1 tries to steal second. The throw beats her by a good bit and she dives to the outside. From my position (I got maybe a couple of steps up the line to increase my angle), it looked like F6 didn't manage to get a tag on her. Partner calls her out. Third base coach comes partway out to him and yells about a missed tag and then he comes over to me.

He asks me if I saw the tag. I told him that I didn't think she made it from where I was but that he had a much better look than I did. He stayed with the out call.

I'm kind of thinking I should have spent more time talking through what he actually had on the call and why he came to me. Or maybe I'm just overthinking it and I should be content just giving him what I had. Thoughts?

Base umpire's call. That's it.

Some time ago, I posted my opinion regarding where you draw the line in "never guessing an out". There are any number of times that we just have to make a call, because everything tells us it was an out, but we don't have the perfect angle to see it. I compared it then to court cases; civil cases decided by "a preponderance of evidence", and criminal cases by "beyond a reasonable doubt".

My point here is that we make our own judgment calls based on a preponderance of evidence, but to advise your partner to change a call, you need to be sure; sure enough to be beyond a reasonable doubt.

Honestly, I've never heard anyone use this explanation, so maybe I'm off base compared to what others believe. But it has stood me well over the years. Hope it helps you with your quandary.

I completely agree with you on your thinking. I don't think I've ever heard it in legal speak, but it makes sense.

This makes more sense than anything else I have ever read about the philosophy/psychology of officiating. I love it; thanks, Steve.

As PU, I would not give the coach my view/opinion/thoughts on a play which was obviously the BU's call. I would provide what information I had to BU IF AND ONLY IF I had "beyond a reasonable doubt" information or if BU asked for my input.

I agree that AtlUmpSteve's explanation is as good as I have ever heard.

A couple of steps up the line to increase your angle? As PU, you should be moving up the line after the throw by the catcher so that you have the call at third should the ball get past F4/F6. Moving just a couple of steps to get a better angle on the play is really not your responsibility, because it could cause you to be late getting to third.

If you are referring to the OP's description of events, I think there may be some pronoun confusion.

When the OP says, ... I think the "He" in question is his partner. At least, that is how I read it.

Yeah, he in this case is my partner.

OK. Now it makes sense. Pronouns were never my strong suit. Thankfully there were no subjunctive clauses or adverb phrases or I would really have been confused.

I'm not sure this is right. I went and double checked and if I read the right part of the manual the correct behavior is to step out from behind the plate and read the play. I thought by the book that the call at third belonged to the BU (there's no exception that I could find but I'd be happy to be corrected.)
It is common around here to read this play and if the BU can't get to third to the PU will sometimes call them off (deviating only if we communicate). But it wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood how to do something.

I will agree and disagree with both of you.

Manny, we are always expected to be a second set of eyes with a different angle on any play (remembering we are there to help our partner only if asked). Same as U1 with R1 on 1st stepping up to watch the tag on a steal even though U3 is there waiting. You never know .....

As to a possible following play at third, YoungUmp, it is the BU's call ONLY for the understanding that there are times when PU can get trapped by the catcher and the ball, and cannot immediately and automatically always have that play. That said, it is EXPECTED that PU WILL verbalize and take the play if not trapped. Go to the holding zone by default; but the same few steps that get you prepared can allow you the angle for help at 2nd.

Just another example in the idiotic practice of a coach getting a second opinion cause he didn't like the call.

The BU should've sent the coach (quickly) back to the dugout. "No, I'm not asking him. Let's play."

I have had many cases over the years of saying I wasn't sure enough of a call by a partner to say he/she should change it. This week, runner returning to 3rd on pickoff attempt. The BU called safe, then asked me when requested. I thought out based on a stutter step, but in a straight line behind the runner could not be sure if her foot was touching before the stutter. So, he stayed with safe.

I think you and I are saying the same thing. But let me restate it a little bit so you can correct me where I've still got it wrong.

The book says that the BU takes the call. But the PU has nothing to do so he should move out. Then watch the tag at second. Then if necessary move up to third and call off BU. The book doesn't mention this but it's expected and the way it's done. Pre-gaming this is a good practice.

Now we are saying the same thing.

Can someone please point out where in the manual it states this is the BU's call?

Disclaimer, I was reading last years manual. But here's what I had. There are no special exceptions for stealing as to who has what runners. Therefore, the BU has the last runner into third. (Which in this case is the runner who stole second). There is a section on stealing that says that the plate umpire should move out from behind the plate and read the play but it doesn't assign the call at third.
Maybe I just missed a section?

The "last runner" is on a batted ball situation.

No one in their right mind would expect the BU to cover a subsequent play at 3rd after a botched play @ 2nd. Shy of being physically disabled on the pitch, there is no excuse for the PU to not be able to cover 3rd.

And yet, some BU will call that play at 3rd from between the pitcher circle and C slot.
What about this with a runner on 2nd tagging up on an outfield fly?

The Umpire Manual for runner on second base only, fly ball to outfield; seems to contradict itself.
For PU - “any play on the lead runner at 3B”
For BU - “the last runner to 3B”

There is no way the BU can get into a good position to make any call at 3rd without the runner being OBS.

What about it? Apples and oranges. To start, the umpire starts in a different position and it is a batted ball. The BU is responsible for the runner tagging up for a possible catch and advance, and the BR should the ball not be caught

No contradiction as the mechanic has to allow for no catch which would create multiple runners. The BU has the lone runner to 3rd on a batted ball.

No manual handy right now, but I think it's page 43 that lists all of the exceptions where the base umpire makes a call at third base. Single runner advancement from second to third on a fly ball tag up is one of the times.

The second paragraph is true in the batted ball case too. That said, I don't really care what the book mechanic is since we all seem to agree on the accepted mechanic. I went looking in the book to determine what it said and that's best I could come up with.

Again, on a batted ball

Sure, but am I correct in saying that there is nothing particular for this situation in the book?

You are correct. That is why I questioned the claim of what the "book" had to say about it.

I have lost which situation you two are on, so please clarify.

Also, is "Single runner advancement from second to third on a fly ball tag up is one of the times" BU covers 3rd; the answer to my question about apparent contradiction?

Runner on 1st, steal of 2nd, runner advances to third. Who has the call per the book?

;) Irish argues that nobody should call it, and I argue that we should start with batted ball mechanics and then discard them by communicating with each other. :D Seriously though, my contention earlier that it is in the book comes from trying to find the closest fit and going with that but I agree it's a long stretch. I'm just not sure that there's anything better.

Without checking a book, I have always learned the PU covers 3rd on a subsequent play (e.g., stealer of 2nd advancing to 3rd is a subsequent play); unless the PU has a play at home.

I think there's somewhat of a shared understanding that this is the right way to do it. But I don't think the book says that.

Fine, and the book says that steals from 2nd to 3rd are PU call. We do not do that, unless the BU is far away covering R2.
It is all from pre-game, AFAIK BU covers 3rd when:
last runner on batted ball
play at 3rd when it is the first play from the infield
steal of 3rd
pickoff at 3rd
runner from 2nd on a tag up
PU has a play at the plate or is trapped

Really, where is that?

Stealing mechanics, third or fourth para.; page 24x.

I have always been in the corner of the PU making this call. As I was trained years ago and as I instructed in multiple schools and clinics, the PU has the call at 3rd in this situation. The plate umpire has the time and unobstructed access to 3rd base.

Stealing mechanics is on page 38 of my Umpire Manual Supplement. And it is specific to Slow Pitch.