Coach's View of the Look-Back Rule
 

Interesting interpretation of the look-back rule:

Last night I had R1 & R2 with 2 outs. The count was 2-2 when F1 throws a wild pitch. Both runners move up, and F1 comes home to cover the plate. F2 hands the ball to F1 who walks back to the circle. (Newly acquired) R3 stays standing off the base but as soon as F1 steps inside the circle, she takes a few steps back toward the bag. Then she changes her mind and does 2-3 little "monkey hops" toward home. Stops, realizing she didn't get the attention she was looking for, and then walks back to the base. All the while F1 is walking toward her starting pitching position, with her head down and with the ball, inside the circle. As I call "time" to declare the runner out for a look-back violation, the pitcher drops the ball transferring it from the glove to her hand.

The coach is ticked! He's "never had a look-back violation call, EVER!" He's mumbling and complaining as he heads back to the dugout - but nothing to get tossed over. He's quiet for the next 1/2 inning, which went quick. As his team is making the 3rd out I see him standing with a rule book at the dugout opening, just itching to get to me. Between innings, I let him come out to plead his case.

Argument #1 - "The pitcher has to have possession of the ball, she dropped it!"

I agreed that the timing made it look bad, but assured him that the pitcher had clear possession of the ball for at least 3 steps going into the circle and only dropped the ball when I was calling time. At that time, his player went toward 3rd base, back toward home and then to 3rd base again. That didn't seem to help, and he disagreed, albeit politely and insisted it was completely legal because the pitcher had ultimately dropped the ball.

Argument #2 - "My batter was still at bat. The rule clearly states that the batter/runner must have arrived at 1st base before you can call a runner out using the look-back rule. With a batter still at bat, it can not be called!"

I tried to explain that a batter is different from a batter/runner and only becomes a batter/runner when they are on their way to first base. Otherwise we would never be able to use the look-back rule, because their is always another batter! A batter/runner is NOT a batter! He again disagreed. He went away "knowing" that I was interpreting the rule incorrectly and that I ripped him out of more runs.

I'm stunned at coaches that have no idea about this rule. If you've coached more than 2-3 games in softball (as opposed to being a baseball dad who is coaching softball because he has a daughter), you should know this rule.

Well, that is going to depend on how the umpires they are getting it are calling it. Helped a neighbor coach a rec team a couple of years ago, just so happens to be the same league I did for years but they had gone to NSA sanction and switched to a different umpiring group.

During entire season not one lookback violation called, nor ever an obstruction call EVER. It really came to a head in one game where we had specifically been instructing our pitchers they were not to attempt to throw out runners standing off base, they were to just stand there with the ball doing nothing. Runner rounds 3rd and stops about 3 steps off the base, pitcher has ball in circle. Runner stands there, and stands there. I can see pitcher is getting itchy and I tell her DO NOT THROW THE BALL. Runner continues to stand there, as you can figure out this is well past a lookback violation. Finally after about 30 seconds the pitcher can't resist any longer and throws the ball and as you can guess the run scores.

I was completely fed up and went to the umpire assignor and asked why the published rules were not being enforced. The answer I got was, "we are giving the umpires leeway in the way they call the game because we want the girls to learn the game of softball." I asked her how we were ever suppose to teach the girls the game when we were operating under 30 different umpires rule sets and the most basic rules of the game were being ignored.

Wish I had a cricket sound effect to insert because that was about the same response I got.................. Relaxing the rules is not helping teach anyone the game, just as ignoring illegal pitches and just talking to the coach about it never fixes the pitcher.

Two observations:
1. Why did you call "time?" Is that correct in certain codes? In NSA, it is a live ball out.

2. NSA is often on the short side of clear rules, but in this case the wording certainly would have helped.
"When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat...."

Please don't attribute this to being NSA taught umpires. It certainly may be the case with that particular group, but I can tell you Indiana NSA umpires are very well trained.

This is an immediate dead ball in NFHS

Sorry..I cannot buy this..You said "NSA"..."Indiana"..and "well trained" in the same sentence......

Most rule books screwed up when they changed it to not go into effect until a batter who was become a batter-runner reaches first base. They made that switch by forgot about when the batter doesn't become a batter-runner. Obviously, the rule is still in effect. But the wording is awful.

I missed something. How did we get an R3 with a full count ?- unless this wild pitch was called a strike ?

It's clearly a typo. R3 meaning the runner from 3rd. Don't complicate matters.

NSA actually doesn't say whether this is a live ball or dead ball. It's silent on the subject (Rule 8-8-x). Elsewhere in the book it says that when things aren't specified in the NSA book, go by NFHS rules. LBR is a dead ball in every other rule set.

Apparently not a typo, but non-standard terminology. :rolleyes:

You and blueump should stop confusing things with FACTS. ;) ;) :p :D

Since he used baseball terminology for the runners and called TIME instead of DEAD BALL, it is a good bet he is a baseball-trained umpire! ;)

To the issue, I'll have to refer to NFHS rules, since I don't umpire NSA (I didn't even know they took time away from monitoring our phones to run a softball league... ;)). The rule is pretty clear. The coach is at least uninformed, and I never allow coaches to "proof text" a rule.

The last batter-runner in your situation is R2 on first (you called her R1). Since she has clearly reached 1B, and then 2B, the LBR is clearly in effect.

I don't find that to be hard to understand at all.

The correct call for a LBR violation is DEAD BALL, and then the runner is declared out.

(BTW, in a softball game, the call TIME is only used for actual time outs, not for dead ball situations that result from game play.)

If we're being pedantic about someone else's terminology... R2 is a runner... not a batter-runner.

I wasn't being pedantic; anal maybe! ;) Proper terminology for the sport is appreciated and leads to less confusion. And, I didn't say R2 was a batter-runner, I said she was the last batter-runner.

My look back rule story.....

I am BU. R1 on second, wild pitch, R1 advances to and rounds third.
Ball retrieved and returned to pitcher in the circle who looks at R1 off of third base. Pitcher raises her arm and starts pump faking as if she is going to throw. R1 is dancing back and forth. No throw is made and R1 returns to third.

Defensive coach starts yelling from the third base dugout...She (R1) can't do that! She is out! You have to call her out! Since I am close to the dugout, I respond by saying that the pitcher is attempting a play and that turns the rule off.

Coach says back to me that it doesn't matter..if the pitcher is in the circle she can do anything she wants and the runner can't dance back and forth. I just shake my head and we play on....

A few pitches later, I notice coach get up and walk to the end of the dugout and start digging in a backpack...and pulls out a rule book!

I say loudly toward the dugout......"It's in rule 8 if you want to look it up!"

Yes...I know that I probably handled this inappropriately, but I just couldn't stop myself....:D

Next half inning break, I am getting a drink near the first base side and coach comes over toward me....."So when did that rule change, was it last year?"

Uhhhh...no, coach.....

Funny. And yeah - probably a bit inappropriate. I find that any time the umpire is shouting across the diamond, they have lost a little control of their composure and of the situation.

Yeah, but I'm sure it felt good! :D

I assume you type in jest. Either way and regardless of your opinion, as a whole group, Indiana NSA umpires are quite good.

True, it does not say either way.
What it does say is:
"... will result in the runner being declared out." (As you stated - Rule 8-8-x)
That leaves no reason for the umpire to declare a dead ball as well as the out.
In fact the LBR is NOT mentioned in Rule 9 Section 1 which is "The ball is dead and not in play:"
Again, no justification to rule dead ball.

And for the edification of anyone reading your post as education; NO, In NSA there is NO default to NFHS (or any other) rules.

mmmk

I stand corrected. I thought that was the case before checking your book, and then misread the "Note: Any softball rules not covered or found in this section will be covered or found in Part I of the official NSA Rulebook" to say NFHS.

Good, one book at a time is bad enough. :rolleyes:

The NSA Case Book (which is on-line, if anyone wants to check it out) has several case plays where the Look Back Rule is violated and states that the ball is DEAD.

To not kill the ball is just asking for trouble. If you do not kill the ball, other runners may attempt to advance and also be in violation of the LBR, but you will most likely be having a discussion with the OC.

The umpire needs to kill the play to control the game