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chapmaja Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:25pm

Two from today
 
HS JV game (NFHS rules) . I am the BU on both of these plays.

Play 1: 0 out, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, B3 hits a ground ball pretty slow to the 3rd base side of the pitchers plate. F1 reaches down, attempts to pick it up and deflects it towards F6. The ball is well short of F6 with a rather quick B2 now the batter-runner. R1 runs in front of F6 and there is contact. I, as the BU see the contact, but do not feel F6 has any chance to make an out so I rule this incidental contact and play on. My PU has a DDB signal. After the play ends, we come together. He says he has obstruction. Did I see anything different. I say no, but at this point we have the defensive coach out to question the call. Ultimately the obstruction call is the ruling made by the PU. Should I have called obstruction, or is this one that is a play on. There was no award made because the runner advanced to the base she would have reached had the contact not occurred. I didn't have obstruction because the way the play unfolded I did not see F6 having the chance to make an out on the play.


Play 2: This was even stranger. A couple runs already in and a pitcher who can not find the plate. 1 out, R1 on 1b, B2 hits a ground ball to F1, who throws to F3 for the out. R1 for some reason stops, and stands between 1st and 2nd. The defense thinks it is 3 outs, so most of them head in towards the dugout. R1 then takes off, rounds second and heads for 3rd. F5 is yelling for a throw to catch R1, but the throw is late and R1 slides in safely. The defense, now including F3 and F6 all head into the dugout. The only calls from the umpires have been the out at 1st on B2 and the safe call on R1 at third.

Neither umpire ever calls time. The home team (offensive coach) goes to the plate umpire and says she only has 2 outs. While this is happening, and time has not been called. The home team now comes out on the field to play defense. R1, thinking it must be 3 outs, goes into the dugout and gets her glove, coming out to pitch. The PU and myself (BU), both only have 2 outs. The home book (being kept by the 1b coach) only has two outs. The visiting book, also only has two outs.

We decide to call the home team back into the dugout and return the visiting team to defense, putting R1 back on third base. At this point, the defensive (visiting team) coach wants R1 called out for abandoning the base.

What should the correct ruling be. I know, we should have called time to check on the outs before the teams left the field, but what should we have done with R1. She did leave the field as a base runner legally occupying a base, but since the umpires had not said anything and the defense has left the field, she likely assumed it was 3 outs. (Also, the scoreboard has incorrectly showed 2 outs when the play started.

prab Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:14pm

Play 1 - This is hard to follow. Where was F6 positioned so that R1 could run in front of her?

Play 2 - All of the players involved in this play should try out for soccer. Coaches should try coaching the glee club.

chapmaja Thu Apr 09, 2015 07:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by prab (Post 960576)
Play 1 - This is hard to follow. Where was F6 positioned so that R1 could run in front of her?

Play 2 - All of the players involved in this play should try out for soccer. Coaches should try coaching the glee club.

Yes, F6 was well back of the baseline between 2nd and 3rd.

prab Thu Apr 09, 2015 07:52am

Play 1 - Something is still confusing here. If R1 started on 3rd and F6 was between 2nd and 3rd, then for them to have contact would mean that R1 was running the bases backward? Was it in fact R2 who had contact with F6?

Dakota Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 960571)
HS JV game (NFHS rules) . I am the BU on both of these plays.

Play 1: 0 out, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, B3 hits a ground ball pretty slow to the 3rd base side of the pitchers plate. F1 reaches down, attempts to pick it up and deflects it towards F6. The ball is well short of F6 with a rather quick B2 now the batter-runner. R1 runs in front of F6 and there is contact. I, as the BU see the contact, but do not feel F6 has any chance to make an out so I rule this incidental contact and play on. My PU has a DDB signal. After the play ends, we come together. He says he has obstruction. Did I see anything different. I say no, but at this point we have the defensive coach out to question the call. Ultimately the obstruction call is the ruling made by the PU. Should I have called obstruction, or is this one that is a play on. There was no award made because the runner advanced to the base she would have reached had the contact not occurred. I didn't have obstruction because the way the play unfolded I did not see F6 having the chance to make an out on the play.


Play 2: This was even stranger. A couple runs already in and a pitcher who can not find the plate. 1 out, R1 on 1b, B2 hits a ground ball to F1, who throws to F3 for the out. R1 for some reason stops, and stands between 1st and 2nd. The defense thinks it is 3 outs, so most of them head in towards the dugout. R1 then takes off, rounds second and heads for 3rd. F5 is yelling for a throw to catch R1, but the throw is late and R1 slides in safely. The defense, now including F3 and F6 all head into the dugout. The only calls from the umpires have been the out at 1st on B2 and the safe call on R1 at third.

Neither umpire ever calls time. The home team (offensive coach) goes to the plate umpire and says she only has 2 outs. While this is happening, and time has not been called. The home team now comes out on the field to play defense. R1, thinking it must be 3 outs, goes into the dugout and gets her glove, coming out to pitch. The PU and myself (BU), both only have 2 outs. The home book (being kept by the 1b coach) only has two outs. The visiting book, also only has two outs.

We decide to call the home team back into the dugout and return the visiting team to defense, putting R1 back on third base. At this point, the defensive (visiting team) coach wants R1 called out for abandoning the base.

What should the correct ruling be. I know, we should have called time to check on the outs before the teams left the field, but what should we have done with R1. She did leave the field as a base runner legally occupying a base, but since the umpires had not said anything and the defense has left the field, she likely assumed it was 3 outs. (Also, the scoreboard has incorrectly showed 2 outs when the play started.

Blue: Pretty much no such thing as incidental contact anymore. This was obstruction if the runner was impeded.

Red: If PU paid attention to the coach, TIME happened right there whether verbalized or not.

MD Longhorn Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:47am

You might need to start over. This is a muddled mess.

How did a runner who started on third base collide with the shortstop?

Who is the batter-runner --- B2 or B3?

What is "incidental contact" - contact like you describe can't be nothing --- it's either INT or OBS, depending on a lot of other things that are exceedingly unclear here.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:53am

I'll play :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 960571)

Play 1: 0 out, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, B3 hits a ground ball pretty slow to the 3rd base side of the pitchers plate. F1 reaches down, attempts to pick it up and deflects it towards F6. The ball is well short of F6 with a rather quick B2 now the batter-runner. R1 runs in front of F6 and there is contact. I, as the BU see the contact, but do not feel F6 has any chance to make an out so I rule this incidental contact and play on. My PU has a DDB signal. After the play ends, we come together. He says he has obstruction. Did I see anything different. I say no, but at this point we have the defensive coach out to question the call. Ultimately the obstruction call is the ruling made by the PU. Should I have called obstruction, or is this one that is a play on. There was no award made because the runner advanced to the base she would have reached had the contact not occurred. I didn't have obstruction because the way the play unfolded I did not see F6 having the chance to make an out on the play.

Where does it say there MUST be an out available for this to be INT (8.6.10.A)?

Quote:

Play 2: This was even stranger. A couple runs already in and a pitcher who can not find the plate. 1 out, R1 on 1b, B2 hits a ground ball to F1, who throws to F3 for the out. R1 for some reason stops, and stands between 1st and 2nd. The defense thinks it is 3 outs, so most of them head in towards the dugout. R1 then takes off, rounds second and heads for 3rd. F5 is yelling for a throw to catch R1, but the throw is late and R1 slides in safely. The defense, now including F3 and F6 all head into the dugout. The only calls from the umpires have been the out at 1st on B2 and the safe call on R1 at third.

Neither umpire ever calls time. The home team (offensive coach) goes to the plate umpire and says she only has 2 outs. While this is happening, and time has not been called. The home team now comes out on the field to play defense. R1, thinking it must be 3 outs, goes into the dugout and gets her glove, coming out to pitch. The PU and myself (BU), both only have 2 outs. The home book (being kept by the 1b coach) only has two outs. The visiting book, also only has two outs.

We decide to call the home team back into the dugout and return the visiting team to defense, putting R1 back on third base. At this point, the defensive (visiting team) coach wants R1 called out for abandoning the base.

What should the correct ruling be. I know, we should have called time to check on the outs before the teams left the field, but what should we have done with R1. She did leave the field as a base runner legally occupying a base, but since the umpires had not said anything and the defense has left the field, she likely assumed it was 3 outs. (Also, the scoreboard has incorrectly showed 2 outs when the play started.

If you both had on 2 outs, why are you even allowing/talking to the coach? However, the moment R1 steps into DBT, she is out and the inning is over. This seems to be a DME(verybody).

MD Longhorn Thu Apr 09, 2015 02:55pm

"I didn't have obstruction because the way the play unfolded I did not see F6 having the chance to make an out on the play."

While the fact that F6 had no chance is really irrelevant ... one would think that fact would give you MORE reason to have OBS ... not less.

teebob21 Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:08pm

My $0.02:

Play 1: Interference on R2 (the runner making contact with F6); dead ball out. Rule support: 8.6.10(a) as Irish pointed out. The key term in the rule is "initial play" as defined in 2.47.3(a): A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched. Opportunity to make the out is not a consideration.

Both conditions seem to be met in your summary. In all fairness, I would have gotten this wrong myself, had it happened to me tonight.

------------------------------

Play 2: Besides being a CF in general, the ball became dead when the PU directed his attention to the offensive coach (again assuming we are reading this correctly and the coach actually came out and chatted with PU, rather than yelling from the coach's box). Rule support: 5.2.1(e) or (f). Take your pick. As far as re-placing the runner where she should be, rule 10.2.3(m) comes closest. It's the fallback "rectify an umpire error" rule for Fed ball.

chapmaja Sat Apr 11, 2015 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 960609)
You might need to start over. This is a muddled mess.

How did a runner who started on third base collide with the shortstop?

Who is the batter-runner --- B2 or B3?

What is "incidental contact" - contact like you describe can't be nothing --- it's either INT or OBS, depending on a lot of other things that are exceedingly unclear here.

Should have been R2, not R1. R2 was on second base at the time of the pitch. The contact was between R2 and F6. My mistake.


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