Illegal Pitches and when's enough?
 

Worked an ASA tournament this weekend. 12U A level. Pretty good ball all weekend with a few exceptions.

Had one young lady pitching and she was doing the little "hop" off the pitcher's plate "every" pitch instead of toe down and dragging. I know it's and IP............but..............coach was told two or three times that it was illegal and he agreed but said she's young and has to work through it, he was going to leave her in the game. Nonsense but that's what he said.

Opposing coach wants it called. It's called a few times and results in a couple of runs being scored.......but the pitching technique never changed. Didn't look like she even tried to change it..........or maybe just couldn't. I don't know.

My partner and I just simply came to the conclusion that we just couldn't call it every pitch. The game would turn into a fiasco fans having fits about letting the girls play, us looking like complete idiots for calling the pitches when no real advantage was being gained.

We simply lived with it, the other team stopped griping when we asked him if he wanted it called every pitch and the game continued on. The illegal pitcher lost the game............but, what would you guys have done? I'm curious.

Thanks

League ball or tourney?

You said A ball - I would think that by this point in the season we've gotten rid of those pesky illegal habits. Call it when you see it. At some point the coach is going to pull her. Not fair to the other team to let the girl do stuff they aren't supposed to be able to do. Call it early and often. Call it every pitch with no one on base if you have to.

I can see some leniency early in the season in league ball. Or at C levels, etc.

Ugh, I hate that argument.

Where does it say IPs should only be called when an advantage is gained? Where is the advantage gained when a pitcher puts her hands together, separates them to scratch her nose, and then puts them back together? Does a pitcher really gain an advantage when she interrupts her pitching motion?

You said tournament play, right? You really can't ignore stuff at that point. Rec ball, yeah, I can see it there. But these girls should know what they're doing especially at A level.

I agree with Manny...

But I would add that not having to pitch with your feet correctly DOES give you an advantage.

Others have said if before but I really think it's passed time to rethink the leap rule. Move the plate back a few feet and let them be airborne if they wish. There have been discussions on this board in the past about the physics/advantage/disadvantage of airborne vs drag. And as far as I'm concerned, when Fed ( and I believe ASA and others) said a few years back that we can take the depth of the divit in front of the pitching plate in mind, they were acknowledging a fact of the game.

As to your original question, I would have used the divit/hole defense if possible, but if that was too much of a stretch then I guess Id call them all and take the s**tstorm that came my way.

First off, as others have already commented nothing in the pitching rules say anything about gaining an advantage. And then, how do you know if she was gaining an advantage or not?

Had a high school girl a couple of years ago in an early season tournament that was doing a little hop out and throw. Talked to coach during her warmups, told him to go out and tell her to drag the foot. First pitch illegal. 2nd pitch illegal. Coach comes out and starts the, but she never gets called illegal, and she is the #1 pitcher on her club team. He goes out and talks to her again. Now she does tries to drag except she cant get the ball anywhere near the plate. She was either illegal throwing strikes, or legal and couldnt get the ball over the plate. If she hadnt been forced to throw legally how would anyone have known she couldnt get the ball over the plate using a legal delivery? As it turned out, the opposing coach came out and told me they just wanted to play ball and he didnt care if she was legal or not. At that point I agreed to let it go. But, I did talk to another umpire later in the season who did one of the illegal pitchers games and he said she was still doing the exact same thing.

Guys,
I know the pitches were illegal. I know I and my partner could have called every pitch. Advantage, disadvantage is really I suppose irrelevant to my question. If a coach "refuses" to remove a pitcher after you've called 10 illegal pitches and it's cost him runs it puts umpires in a funky position. I know in the rule of rules that IP are supposed to be called. After we called about 10 the fans started in with "Quit taking the game away, allow the girls to play!" and all the other crap that goes along with being protective of their kid......they don't understand "all" the nuances that go into pitching.

My question is what would you guys do in a "fun" A level tournament (Not a qualifier in any way.)

I didn't like the position the coach put us in but I can also see the other side where "It's kid's softball and they're kids" angle. I supposed we could have taken the hard line and of course become the "ruinators" of the afternoon for probably 60 plus kids and adults.

Would the hard line be the course you would all take? Call every pitch and turn a game into a fiasco?

As it was the game ended 3 to 0 and we gave the winning team 2 of the 3 runs. Why only 2 runs......we were trying to drive a point home....albiet being selective when we called IP a time or two.

Go ahead, I'm ready for your wrath.

How does calling the game by the rules make the umpires ruin the game? Isnt it the coaches fault for either not teaching the girl to pitch properly in the first place or not removing her when itbecame obvious it was going to cost runs and the game?

10 illegal pitches? Ive had games where I have called girls probably 25 or 30 times. If the pitch is illegal, call it.

yes!!!

If they decide to change the rules thats fine, until then the umpires job is to call the game per the rules as they exist.

Linknblue,

I'll answer as honestly as I can, even if I ruin my reputation:rolleyes:. In your specific scenario I guess after x number of consecutive illegals, I might ask the coach if the pitcher could give me something, anything that would show an attempt at improvement. I might also ask the opposing coach if this is how they would like the rest of the game enforced. Hopefully, some combination of these two things would give everyone something we could live with. And before anyone says this bastardizes the game, what about this. What do we do when a team is far ahead and the coach tells us that they're going to have one of their players leave base early so the inning can end quicker? Do we refuse to call the runner out because the coach is trying to shorten the game, or do we accept that it's being done for the benefit of all?

Do I want this scenario to happen? Have I had it in the past? No to both. But I would hope that both coaches and myself could find a way to get past this mess.

This is one of the conundrums of umpiring. I face it even at the high school and Juco level from time to time. A pitcher just can't stop leaping, no matter how often you call IPs.

Those girls are the ones who, when they were playing 12U, were doing it and not being called on it by sympathetic umpires who wanted to avoid being the "ruinators". They move up to 14U and 16U, and still eventually get away with it. And then when they're playing high school ball or in national qualifiers, where rules are expected to be enforced with prejudice, they can't adjust to what they've been doing for years, and those umpires become the bad guys/gals.

Meanwhile, the umpires at 12U who do call it a few times and then stop, they become "the other umpires [who] let us do it!" Now you've contributed to another conundrum in our trade--inconsistency.

And here's another problem that rears its ugly head from time to time: You get the opposing head coach to agree to cut the pitcher some slack because it's ruining the game. So then this pitcher starts dominating the game, and he's getting frustrated that his players can't hit anything. Now he complains that she's getting away with much more than what was agreed upon, and what was supposed to be a fun game turns into a snipe war. No thanks.

Look, you do what you feel you have to do, but it shouldn't be because you want to avoid lopsided games or sh!tstorms from the fans. But realize that your decision to ignore the infractions contribute to long-lasting effects beyond what happens in your game. It doesn't help the girl, and it causes blowback to umpires who will call it as required.

I have never viewed this strategy as one to illegally shorten the game. It's the offensive coach's effort to stem the bleeding. And I've never seen a time where the opposing coaches and players complain about it.

Unfortunately I have seen 2 or 3 cases of opposing coaches going nuts over it. "Our players aren't learning anything if you give them free outs". Even saw a coach pull her team and forfiet. Problem is, in games that are that lopsided, noone is learning anything. Losing team is simply frustrated and can do nothing correctly, and winning team is simply learning to be lazy and take chances they normally wouldnt.

If she's doing it every pitch, then it takes seven of them for the first run to score; 4 more to score a second run, etc. Fifteen illegal pitches in a row and you have 2 runs, and a 3-0 count.

I've said this to a lot of umpires I'm training - the BEST time (for you and for the players and coach) to catch the illegal pitch is the first time you see it. If they're doing it a lot, and you let a few go and then call it, they likely now have runners on - the penalty is greater because you waited. If she's illegal on pitch one ... CALL IT. The penalty there is simply a ball. Next pitch still illegal... CALL IT. Another ball. Give them time to fix it if they are going to try to fix it.

"And what do you want me to do, Coach? Not call the outs when the rule clearly says I must? Your beef is with the opposing coach, not me!"

Seriously, if a coach gets that upset and vocal about it, then I'm sure the opposing coach would be more than happy to stop and keep running up the score.

I was working the high school state tournament a couple of years ago and had two big school teams. I was working first base and noticed the first pitcher being illegal on every warmup pitch. First pitch of the game--illegal. Coach comes bounding out of the dugout whining that it is the first time she has been called all year.

Never was illegal the rest of the game. Afterwards, a metro umpire said that this happens every game. She will throw illegal until caught and then fix it immediately.

I will submit the argument that there was an advantage being gained, otherwise she would be pitching legally. And while I am not a fan of the women's/girl's version of the pitching rule in some areas, as an umpire I have to call the IP whenever I see it.

Thanks guys. I've got a consensus. I see the point of calling "all" illegal pitches. I called them, and I was PU, so didn't see everyone cuz of concentration on other things but I got two runs calling illegals and nothing changed.........Gawd, that's ugly when you know you're right and everyone is screaming and yelling.

I'll just have to "ball up" and call it next time and live with the sh...storm I guess. Then I'll come back and post what happened.

Thanks

Whoa Nellie, hang on. This young lady was leaping during her pitches, and as PU you were calling them? In the OP, you said you had a partner. Why were you and not him making those calls? IPs involving the feet are the BU's responsibility.

Cuz he refused to call every pitch IP. He was the one that asked the OC if that was what he wanted, every pitch to be called. OC kinda shut up but..........that's what I was into.

Call it when you see it, absolutely. Can it get ridiculously out of control? The calls, NO; but the game can be. When it does get ridiculous to the point of the game taking three hours and is lopsided, you talk to the OC and negotiate the situation.

When they understand the 20 run lead may go for naught if the game doesn't reach the minimum number of innings, they may get over the point that you intend to finish the game and if that means overlooking some IPs, so be it.

Frankly, I wouldn't think too highly of a coach who would allow his/her pitcher to stay out there and have IP after IP after IP called to the point that the game gets that ridiculous. Any coach worth his/her salt would remove the pitcher after a few walks and a couple of runs, and not let the pitcher suffer all of the embarrassment and indignity that comes with an IP-induced blow out.

Had a coach a couple of years ago who refused to take the pitcher out, who just happened to be his daughter. She was leaping and not even attempting to keep the foot down even after repeatedly telling both her and her dad the pivot foot had to drag away. He kept trying to argue it didnt and at one point told me he wasnt going to allow me to call illegal pitches all day. He was going to go get the TD and the UIC and talk to them. I told him to go right ahead and get them. He never did pull her, and worst part was I was told he came back the next morning and put her right back in for the next game and was throwing a fit again.

Yup, like I said, I wouldn't think too highly of this pinhead. And I wouldn't be surprised if most--if not all--of the parents on his team, as well as the opposing coaches and fans, and umpires felt the same way.

Don't know. Didn't Candrea do that a few years ago with Kenzie Fowler?

She was a serious leaper and Candrea never stated she wasn't illegal, but the umpire's shouldn't have been so adamant about calling it. And, of course, after the game Fowler stated, on air through the tears, that she hadn't been called illegal before (even though the NCAA stats page showed that she had).

The first question in my mind is how does a player reach that level and not get corrected by a staff which was supposedly world-class? Second question, did they really care? I think Candrea believed his offense could overcome the free passes and they often did.

It does not matter if an IP is an advantage or disadvantage.
It does not matter if the pitcher really has not been called for illegal pitches before.
Pitches can be illegal, not the pitcher.
It does not matter if the coach complains.
It does not matter what we think about the coach.
It does not matter if the spectators complain or harass the umpires (might hurt recruiting though).
It does not matter if your partner agrees.
he call does not "give" the other team balls, bases or runs; the infraction does.

Lower levels or lower ages; I don't call it the first time, but stop the game, tell the coach what was illegal and let the coach correct or ignore it.
Ignoring it gets the next time called.

In spite of my comments, it is still a conundrum for me in a situation where the coach determines my rating. :mad:

A highlight for me is seeing a pitcher throw a legal warmup. :D

AMEN!!
Although as we all know, not a 100% indicator of legal when it counts - But a good start!!

What would you do?
 

MTD, Jr. (aka MTDv2.0) and I umpired in a girls' (10U, 12U, and 14U) FP tournament this past weekend (Saturday and Sunday only). Saturday's games were rained out so the entire tournament was played on Sunday. The 14Us played NFHS Softball Rules but the 10Us and 12Us played Little League Softball Rules; in other words, this was not an ASA or USSSA sanctioned tournament, but I digress. It was a long day which started at 08:00am; there was a shortage of umpires and all of the games except the championship games were single umpire games. Mark and I umpired five games as solo umpires and then umpired the 14U championship game at the end of the day.

Buy my third game of the day was a 10U game and I did not see the starting pitcher (RHP) for the Home Team take her warm up pitches before the start of the game because I was in the dressing room readjusting my knee brace. The H starting pitcher could have passed as a 13 year old (her coach later confirmed that she would be playing 12U next year).

LL Softball Rule 8.01-(h) states: "In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher may take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneously with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within or partially within the 24 inch length of the pitcher's plate."

Starting with her very first pitch, she stepped to her left at a 45 degree angle from the straight line from HP to 2B, and it landed at least 6 inches to the left of the 24 inch length of the pitcher's plate. I did not call IPs on her first 4 pitches because they were balls and the Visitors' HC never complained. But when continued to pitch that way to the second batter I stopped the game and asked her HC to join me in the circle. I explained the situation to the HC and he explained it to his pitcher. And yet she still couldn't pitch legally. She pitched that way for 2-1/2 innings and then her took her out. I never called an IP and the Visitor's never complained even though they lost the game.

I told the pitcher's HC that if she was going to play ASA as a 12U she needed to correct it because in the tournaments in which MTD, Jr., and I umpire, the umpires will call IPs from her very first pitch and it will be called until she corrects it or she is removed from the F1 position. He gave me that blank look stare as if to say, what I am supposed to do?

This was a season ending tournament and not a very big one. It was going to be and was a long hot day. This was a situation where one just had to bite the bullet and not get overly officious. Fortunately, Mark, Jr., and I did not see this team the rest of the day.

MTD, Sr.

Mark - I would ask, in your area --- is this a late-season tourney, or a pre-season one (could be either given the timing). IOW, were these Spring teams finishing up, or Fall teams just getting going?

At 10U, especially at the beginning of the season, everyone gives a ton of leeway on IP's - you have to. Late in the season, they should have stuff like that ironed out by now. (And the IP your girl was doing sounds like a DISadvantage to her - I bet she loses some speed pitching like that).

The only other thing I'd add is that IMHO, the very best time to call an IP like the one you saw (again, assuming this is not early in the season as mentioned above) is the first pitch of the game. No one on, just a ball for a penalty.

Worked a 10U tournament this weekend. F1 steps on the pitcher's plate with hands separated, comes together, separates, then puts the ball back into the glove, separates, and starts to pitch.

Called time, talked to coach, told him the problem, and stated it would be called an IP. VERY next pitch, she does same thing. Called IP and the comment from the stands was priceless: "Come on, they haven't called her on that all year."

Have a hard time biting my tongue and not responding, "So, she HAS been doing this all year and the coaches still haven't corrected it?" :)

And I really "screwed" the team when I called the IP: bases loaded and 3-2 count on the batter.