giving the situation to new pitcher
 

Do any of you as PU or BU go out to the circle and let the new pitcher know where the runners are, outs and count when a pitching change is made? Do some of you do it only for low level ball? I have been told by evaluators to not do this, because that is considered coaching. I will give the count from behind home plate but that is it, the number of outs if requested. I had a game last week, ASA 12U, fairly good team. When I didn't inform a teams pitcher, the coach became livid. I told him then, and later after the inning ended that it wasn't my job to do this, it was his job. He informed me it was my responsibility to do this. He was in the circle while she was warming up. He told me I was the only umpire he has ever had who wouldn't do this in his 6 years of coaching. He also told me they would be playing in our State tournament this weekend, and he was going to find out for sure. My problem is, I see umpire doing this all the time. Even at the State tourney he will surely find umpires that agree with him, and then think he is right. Just wondering. Dave

Absolutely, unequivocally not.

Manny, do any in your area do it anyway? We must have a bunch of untrained umpires and coaches. I absolutely refused to do it and he was genuinely pi$$ed off. Didn't bother me.

Honestly, the only place I've seen it is in Little League. And it's not something that is taught at LL clinics in our area. It's just that some LL volunteer umpires don't bother to attend those clinics, don't have league UICs who teach what is proper, etc., and those umpires think it's required as a courtesy.

But in softball here under ASA, NFHS, PONY, etc., I can't recall ever seeing an umpire give the situation, nor a coach complain when it isn't done.

It's simple: the game situation is something the coach should tell his/her new pitcher when he/she makes the change. If asked about the count and outs, I'll answer, and it's usually the catcher who does the asking. If not asked, I will give the count before I say Play if there is a batter in the middle of an at-bat. That's about it.

yep

I was sure I was correct. After getting an earful, I was about one second away from tossing him.

I've worked with several who do this on the HS level and had one ask me this year why I hadn't gone out as PU to talk to new pitcher.

That is the same problem I have around here. Not sure where they pick this nonsense up. By them doing this, it makes us doing it correctly, more difficult.

Speaking of OCs. Last month in an girls' ASA FP tournament, I was on the Plate and Mark, Jr., was on the Bases. in a 10U game.

Red Team (who is the Visiting team and is losing) makes a pitching change during the inning. The new F1 comes in and takes her five warm-up pitches while her HC stands next to her during her warm-up pitches. After F1 finishes warming up her HC continues to stand next to the Pitching Circle. I tell the HC we are ready to play and our conversation goes as follows:

Defensive (Red) HC: Aren't you going to tell her what the situation is?

Me: What?

Red HC: Aren't you going to tell her where the runners are and how many outs there are?

Me: No. You need to leave the field now Coach.

Red HC: But that is your job.

Me: No, that is your job. (She is now just outside her dugout gate.) I am not her coach, you are.

Offensive (Green) HC (from the 3B Coaching Box): Yes it is your job.

Me (to Green HC): That is enough because you are not part of this conversation.

Red HC: See! She (Green HC) even knows you are not doing your job.

Mark, Jr.: Time! Game over. Time limit has been reached.

There is nothing like a long conversation on a very hot afternoon when the time limit is close at hand.

Excellent!!!!

Count only, the same as after any extended delay. That is, it really has nothing to do with the fact that there is a new pitcher, but instead, that the game has been halted for a couple of minutes or so.

One of the senior leaders of my high school official association does this. I've partnered with him a few times, and I cringe each time.

I assume you told him it is because you are the umpire, not the coach.

6 whole years? :eek:

Lately I've had a long string of partners who want to do this. Drives me batty.

Taking personal opinion out of it, I've never been instructed to do this in any class or clinic. It's not in any umpire manual I've ever seen. That right there's enough to convince that it's not a recommend mechanic.

To me, it does strike me as "coaching". I mean, come, on, kids have four coaches in the dugout and their own set of eyeballs. Do they really need the umpire to tell them "the situation"?

Besides coaching, it reeks of an umpire who's itching to interject himself in the game any way he can. The guys that really get me are the ones who, while telling the pitcher which bases are occupied, make a dramatic point at each runner as they list them off. Like the pitcher doesn't even know where first, second or third bases are and has to have the umpire show her?

I pity the coach who decides to "get livid" because I don't do this. I'll tell him that how he coaches his team is his business, how I umpire the game is my business. If he wants to enjoy the rest of the game, he probably better not press the issue beyond that.

This one rubs me the wrong way just a little bit more than umpires telling the fielders to throw their hands up in the air if the ball goes out of play!

Manny, I have seen it serveral times while during tournments in MD, why they do it I have do idea, I guess I shoud ask next time.

Must be some of those MD umpires. :p

It may be one of those old school things that umpires remember seeing when they played ball as kids, kinda like showing two fists with a full count, and have never been told we don't do that anymore.

Hold on now, no need for a border war ;).

I've probably worked in 10 or more states over the years and this practice shows up everywhere. No rhyme or reason. I agree with BretMan about some umpires wanting to interject themselves. When I'm behind the plate and I see my partner hovering around the new pitcher, I know what he's about to do. I want to wave a red flag and tell him to get back to his position in the field.

I've actually seen it more often in baseball. I wonder if that's just a baseball thing that some dual-hatted and transitioning umpires brought over to the softball side. I haven't been to a baseball clinic in many years, so I don't know if it's something that is endorsed as a courtesy on the grassed diamond.

Yes, I see it a lot in baseball too (or, saw it a lot, as I've transitioned almost exclusively to fastpitch the past couple of seasons).

But, no, it was never taught to me and I've never seen it in any baseball umpire manual. In fact, on some of the baseball forums that I frequent I've seen threads about this topic and, just like here, guys are against it.

A true story from my high school baseball days...I'm working the bases and there is a pitching change. Warm-ups get thrown I get back into "C" position snd get ready to go. Then I notice that the plate umpire is just standing there staring at me.

I can't figure out what's going on so I give my partner a subtle "what's going on?" signal. He points at the pitcher and says, "Go tell him".

Huh? Go tell who, what? I shrug my shoulders and he points at the pitcher again and says, "Go tell him the situation". Then I figure it out. He thinks that it's my responsibility to inform the pitcher how many outs there are and what runners are on base!

I kind of waved him off, like "I'm not going to do that, let's just play ball". But he points again and says to inform the pitcher. And it looks like he's not going to re-start the game until I do!

So, I took a few steps toward the mound, leaned in and said in my quietest voice, so nobody would know what I was saying except me and the pitcher, "Okay, pitch, are you ready? Alright, here we go now".

Apparently that was enough, because with that my partner put his mask back on, got back behind the plate and finally got the game going again.

I confess I do use the fist-bumping to indicate full count, but ONLY as a BU when my PU partner comes to me for the count. Obviously never as a PU.
It's easier to see from a distance, and just as discrete.

It is only the practice of bad baseball umpires.

That's what I suspected.

I still believe that at some point in the past, it was a common thing, and it's being kept alive by umpires who learned from those old-timers who did it.

I am an umpire, not a coach, so I don't do a coaches job when I am on the field. Informing his new pitcher of a game situation IS a coach's responsibility.

I was taught this by an older old school umpire way back when. I did it one year but after moving up to the 16/18A circuit I learned fast that i was taught wrong. I think this comes from the older umpires that only do rec. They work with a 1st year umpire and that umpire sees the example for older umpire and thinks it must be a mechanic.

I wouldn't give new pitchers any other information other than the count when the batter steps back into the batters box-- and that's to refresh everyone as a courtesy.

Surely it's the team and manager's jobs to remind themselves where the play is going, runners on, etc

Trust me, the OH coaches are right, because they told you so!!! :p

I've seen some serious garbage come out of OH and I'm not talking about the umpires.

I may be wrong, but this practice may come from areas where umpires are expected to be there specifically to allow the players to participate in the game and to be part of that experience. I have always held that the umpires are not there for the players, coaches or spectators, but we are there for the game and only to officiate it regardless of the sport.

You will see this reflected on non-officiating boards any time you mention applying game management technics or rules to move the game along or which may hurt a little girl's feelings.

Worked Little League districts with a "situation" guy last night. At least he didn't try to do it when I was on the plate in the second game.

Although he did do the "Out at two! Safe at one!" nonsense.

Well I heard from a good umpire friend of mine who was working the State tourney where this clueless coaches team was playing. Sure enough, before the team even took the field for their first game, the coach was quizzing the umpires working his game about the scenario I asked about. They gave the same answer I gave him. I will umpire, you coach. Not our responsibility to tell the situation. Would have loved to see the look on his face. Dave

Anyone I know. :eek:

The Regulative Principle of Umpiring
 

I had a guy who helped me quite a bit when I started many years ago.

He was an Elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. They abide by the regulative principle of worship...in other words, they only do things in their worship service that they believe the Bible commands and nothing else.

He said that I should take this principle in umpiring. Only do what you are supposed to do! Don't say take your base on ball four, don't point the batter down to first, don't give the "situation", don't flash the count at your partner from the bases, etc etc etc.

Have a reason for what you do as an umpire. Make sure that reason can be found in the Rules Book, Case Book, Umpire Manual or a clinic.

That helped me a lot.

Yes.

1) OK, I didn't see any disagreement about this.

2) Hijacking the new pitcher question just a bit, had to rule that 1 minute between innings applies even if the pitcher is changed; and even if the change is unreported.

3) A worse hijack. Recently, I have seen/heard the " "Out at two! Safe at one" (usually only one of them) with high level umps and wonder if I should adopt the same.

4) Same question about OBS ("Obstruction at 1st" or "Ostruction at 3rd")

Quote:
Originally Posted by shipwreck
He told me I was the only umpire he has ever had who wouldn't do this in his 6 years of coaching.

Doesn't change pitchers much! ;) :D :D

Apparently someone choses not to listen. :rolleyes:

Wonder what s/he says if it is between bases, "Obstruction at 2.3"?

I heard a MLB umpire last night saying "outside" and "low" and "inside" on close pitches. Just goes to show you how bad habits can stay with someone no matter the level. But trust me, I never thought of emulating him. :cool:

I don't consider it a bad habit. In baseball, it's done pretty frequently at the higher levels. I'll do it on pitches that are close and BALL-IN and BALL-OUT. :D

Really...so when you call a strike, do you say: "STRIKE! Caught the Corner!"

False equivalence. I've heard every argument against it. I've not been swayed by any of them. I do it on very close pitches where I'd anticipate a coach saying, "Where was that pitch?" In my experience, it shuts down a majority of those questions.

I hear a fair number of D1 baseball and ML umpires do this, BTW.

Low/high? Never. In/out? Sure.

Why?

Any chance of a serious comment about the actual items?

I've offered the CATCHER a location, but s/he is the only one who heard it and it was not frequent. Now, if the catcher comes out with a "he said...", it stops.

I have no problem with an umpire discretely working WITH a catcher, but not coaching them. At times, it often helps the umpire control the game through the catcher as they will shut down the whiney pitcher or coach and keep the game moving.

I believe umpires LOVE working the plate with catchers who understand the entire game and will conduct the defense from behind the plate.

+1,000,000, love working with a catcher that understands the game and how it should be run.