Taking signs off the plate
 

Pitcher takes signs behind the plate. She then steps on the plate, hesitates just a moment, puts her hands together and starts her pitch.

What is your call in...?

LL

ASA

NFHS

Thank you

Rita

I know nothing about Little League.

What you described is legal in ASA, NFHS, and NCAA. The momentary hesitation after stepping on the pitcher's plate and prior to bringing the hands together meets the requirement to "take or simulate taking a sign" at that point in the prepitch procedures.

Nothing, nothing, and nothing.

The rules say you must brush your teeth with toothpaste. They do not say you cannot also brush them with baking soda or use mouthwash.

Don't do Little League, but as has already been pointed out, no infraction in ASA or NFHS. I don't care when, or from whom, they receive the actual signal. So long as after stepping on the pitching plate the hesitate (simulate taking a sign) before going into the motion. The verbiage "simulates taking a sign" is there for exactly this reason in all codes of which I am aware.

Isn't it that they must hesitate AFTER bringing the hands together?

I have it as, step on, hesitate, bring hands together (book mentions a minimum amount of time of togetherness, but the interp is that the touching alone satisfies the requirement), then begin pitch.

No. Maybe you're confusing the requirement to "take or simulate taking" the signs (i.e. hesitate) with the requirement to bring the hands together for 1 to 10 seconds. During this "1 to 10 seconds" (which, by interpretation, means touch at least briefly) the hands may be moving, so there is no hesitation requirement.

Nothing, same as the others.

Still hangin' on to some of the coaching brain cells, huh? :)

Nah, somehow I learned this as an umpire.
Don't know where I picked this up, although I have been more selective lately. :D

Ummm, not true. From the LL Rules Instruction Manual under the pitching rule for softball.

So in LL, if the pitcher takes her signs off the plate, the plate umpire is required to inform the pitcher she can't do that. Failure of the pitcher to comply with the warning can lead to her being removed not only from the pitching position, but from the game entirely.

That said, I don't know of too many umpires who would do that. More than likely they would repeat the warnings a couple of times until it sinks in.

Thanks all. I just wanted to verify I was explaining it correctly to others.

Rita

The rule you quoted doesn't say that they can't take a signal off the plate. Just that they have to take or simulate taking a signal while on the plate.

No, but the Instructor Comment does imply it. Otherwise, what would the umpire be warning the pitcher for and then removing her from the game?

For not taking signs from on the pitchers plate... not for taking them elsewhere.

From Manny's post:
As much as I don't want to get into this, and as much as it goes contrary to everything I am used to, it looks like for Little League, INC - it not allowed for F1 to take a sign when not on the plate.
Repeating the instructor comment:
can take signs from the manager or coach as long as she is standing on the pitcher’s plate.
That sure reads to me that if she is not on the plate, she can not take signs....

Please don't get the impression that I endorse this comment.... just reacting to what I see.

I do LL EXTREMELY part time, but it was explained to me that was this was written to allow the pitcher to be on the plate, but head and shoulders turned sideways to take the signal - and that taking of the signal still counted as the pause required to not be a quick pitch.

If they took the manager's signals from OFF the plate, they DID still have to pause facing the catcher before pitching.

Without this, a pitcher who turned toward her manager to take the signal would then also have to appear to take one from he catcher, which is silly.

Well, I have attended a number of LL schools and clinics through the years. And the instruction we received was that pitchers must be on the plate to receive signals from catchers, coaches, whomever. When they do so while off the plate, we are to instruct them to get on the plate.

Why LL is different, I have no idea. And whether or not this gets enforced at the various levels of regular season and tournament play is really up to the umpires working those games, and the UICs and tournament directors overseeing them. But it was made clear to us during formal instruction what LL HQ wanted.

This is ridiculous.

How in the world can an umpire tell if a pitcher is taking a signal? Neither you, me, nor anyone else save maybe the Amazing Kreskin has the slightest idea what the hell is going on with the pitcher, on or off the PP.

Did you really just go there????

When they make it obvious, it's easy. I don't worry about the discreet.

But really, how often do pitchers make it discreet? What are they trying to hide when they do? It's not as if they're trying to circumvent a rule that has huge ramifications if they get caught, like bat shaving or ball altering. It's a pitching sign for crying out loud. If they want to hide the fact that they are getting it from the bench, so what?

I was merely pointing out that, apparently unlike all other sanctioning organizations, LL requires the pitcher to be on the plate to take her signs. No big deal.

I've always thought this rule was silly... if TPTB want the pitcher to pause, tell him to pause. That is a fairness & safety rule to prevent quick pitches. That makes sense. It makes no sense to monitor team communications.

I'm a little too young to remember Hoyt Wilhelm but if I understand correctly, the pitch was ALWAYS going to be a knuckleball. Did he even use signs?

Hence my post. It is ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as it even being mentioned by ANY organization's rules.

Just mandate a pause (preferably 2 seconds) with the hands apart while on the PP. I don't give damn if she wants to read the message on the Goodyear blimp. :)

It's simple enough; LL doesn't write softball rules, or even consider the intent behind softball rules. They write baseball rules, and half-a$$ adapt them for softball; and we know baseball requires signals from the rubber (yeah, baseball has a rubber, not a pitcher's plate).

As to softball, we know why ASA doesn't simplify the rule; too many old-time traditionalists that truly believe verbiage in the rulebook came down from Mt. Sinai with those stone tablets. And if another association changes their rule first, well, that's even LESS likely to get ASA to change, because these same old-timers want to believe that ASA is still the leader, and never a follower.

So, we will continue to have baseball umpires working softball that think it is like baseball, or simply baseball for girls; and a rule not as simple as it could be to make everyone understand it.

Oh, and why is it an issue?? Because the same group of umpires that insists the pitcher must take the sign while on the pitcher's plate also will call a "balk" if pitcher's do anything (like drop the ball) BEFORE bringing the hands together; so the coaches TEACH taking the signal off the plate to avoid that. The new numbering system signals makes it even worse.

And here I was trying to stay away from disparaging the LL. And I agree that there are too many "traditionalists" with a vote in ASA. However, most of these folks have no idea, nor care what the traditional rules actually were before they became a tradition :)

Amen to that. IMHO, it slows the game down.

Well, I've been trying to get past my shy stage, and start speaking my mind. :D;):p

Okay, I can buy that..........got a bridge in Brooklyn to go along with that? :cool:

As I have also said for years !!!!

It seems obvious that change is needed, ASA first if they have to be, given how many times a year we discuss this on this forum, let alone on less-informed forums.

Those 3 digit numbers might be causing the pause w/o a rule. ;) :D

I like that toothpaste analogy !! :cool:

I am late jumping into the discussion. BUT....

I am going to respond per NFHS Baseball and Softball Rules sets. The baseball and softball requirements for all rules codes are nearly the same. The only difference is that softball includes the phrase: "or simulate taking", which is accepted as an "unwritten" rule in baseball.

That said the intent of the rule is to prevent a "quick" pitch. I do not care from where or from whom the Pitcher receives his/her signal, as long is there is a noticeable pause between the time the Pitcher intentionally engages the Pitcher's Plate and the start of his/her pitching motion.

There is not rule justification in either baseball or softball for penalizing a Pitcher for taking his/her signal from anybody before he/she intentionally engages the Pitcher's Plate because the pitching rules do not come into effect until the Pitcher intentionally engages the Pitcher's Plate.

An umpire know when the Pitcher has committed and infraction of the rule because the Pitcher will have "quick" pitched.

MTD, Sr.