The Official Forum - Ball hits a tree

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 937831)

Mike and Manny: You established a dead ball area, be it a chalk line, imaginary line or a bush.

What is the rule when a fair batted ball bounces into a dead ball area?

It's a little old and it's baseball. But here's a precedent: 1903 World Series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I see your point. But it was not designated as a dead ball area. It was a safety rule that if a batted ball went beyond that line the fielder didn't have to play it. If a fly ball was CAUGHT out there, it was an out. If for some odd reason a ball was thrown past that line, it was live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 937821)

You can set a dead ball area/line, but once you do the rules take precedence. That, by rule, is a two-base award in baseball.

We never set a dead ball area/line for the rest of the outfield that wasn't fenced in, so why should we have done so with the woods?

And I've seen both in baseball and softball fields where there is no fence in the outfield, and we play all-you-can-get if the ball just goes and goes.

Most rule sets I'm familiar with set no max limit on how far a fence can extend from home plate (ASA is an exception). Most books list a recommended distance. Even OBR says fences can be "XXX feet or more". So if a field has no fence, why the need for a line?

It is either in play or it is out of play. Who would think? There is no provision in ANY rules book for a grounds rule single or a grounds rule triple.

As an aside, it is not a "ground" rule, but a "grounds" rule. It's a matter of correct terminology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 937844)

If you can show me a provision in a rule book that covers what you call "grounds rules" that says we cannot allow them to have unique base awards if the anomaly presents a unique situation, I will stand corrected.

And if you go to the MLB website and click on the OFFICIAL INFO link, under the Umpires link you will find the listing of MLB stadiums' respective ground rules, not grounds rules. If MLB calls them ground rules on their official info site, sounds like that's the correct terminology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 937850)

A tree is not an anomaly. Trees are not unique. Trees overhanging a field are, unfortunately, not unique. The rulebooks already cover this situation. When a rulebook officially addresses a situation, I'm not in any hurry to reinvent the wheel.

You're setting up an area that's dead, for whatever reason. What's the ruling when a fair batted ball rolls or bounces into an area that's dead?

Some of these posts and the ground rules they report are really torturous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 937852)

Which rule are you referring to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 937852)

As an aside, it is a Rules Book, not a rule book. It's a matter of correct terminology. :D

NFHS on ground (not grounds) rules

Rule: 4-1 ART. 3 . . . Ground Rules. If there are unusual conditions, such as spectators or obstacles too near the playing field, the home coach shall propose special ground rules. If sanctioned by the visiting team, these shall be in force. If the teams cannot agree, the umpires shall formulate ground rules. Ground rules shall not supersede a rules book rule.

a. The field should be clearly marked. Markings may include flags on foul poles along the foul lines past first base and third base and vertical foul-line markings on any wall that limits the outfield.

b. When a fair or foul ball fly lands near a stand or fence, Rule 7-4-11 applies. If there is a screen behind the catcher or any permanent obstruction in front of the stands, a batted ball that goes behind these becomes dead. It is recommended that no such obstruction be less than 25 feet from the diamond.

c. Wild pitches, overthrows and batted balls that go over or through a fence or into a dugout are governed by Rule 8-4-1c, 8-4-3; if the field has unusual obstructions, ground rules should attempt to be similar to this rule.

d. For special field conditions, such as a drain pipe that makes a spot where it is impossible or very difficult for a fielder to retrieve the ball, the ball should become dead if it goes to that spot, and each runner's advance should be limited to two bases.

e. For an unfenced field, a chalk or imaginary out-of-bounds line should be established to define live-ball area. If cars are parked along the out-of-play lines, umpires should consider these the same as bleachers and the ball becomes dead if it bounces into the line of cars. The umpires should anticipate such a situation and announce the ground rule in advance.

Proper nomenclature

It's all a matter of proper nomenclature. MLB, ASA, USSSA Fastpitch Softball, NFHS Softball, and NFHS Baseball all agree that it is properly called a ground rule, not a grounds rule. These are all of the references I have readily at-hand.

Seems to me we're talking about E, and not D here, and E says nothing about number of bases the ground rule must be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 937897)

Seems to me we're talking about E, and not D here, and E says nothing about number of bases the ground rule must be.

No, but thats because the rules already say what the rules are for batted/thrown/pitched/carried balls into the dead ball area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 937898)

No, but thats because the rules already say what the rules are for batted/thrown/pitched/carried balls into the dead ball area.

Then why does E mention a ground rule at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 937899)

Then why does E mention a ground rule at all?

My guess it is to address "non-standard" dead ball boundaries.

We had an unfenced field at a city park that the rule was "chase it until you get it" unless the ball went into a soccer goal that was in deep right field, in which case it was a dead ball and a double.