USC, injury
 

Batter strikes out swinging, back in the 1st base dugout, new batter at the plate, I, in "a", notice the first batter walking out the back of the dugout, violently winging her helmet and bat to the ground (no one around, no fence slammed against).
I'm sure there was no anger towards the PU (not relevant, just sayin').
Before they go out on defense, I tell the coach that if there was a called strike in that at-bat she'd most likely be gone, and it won't happen again.

Next inning, runner on same team (EP, PONY) blows out her knee in a rundown, taking the team down to 9 players, no subs.

Got me thinking...
IF batter had gotten tossed earlier, and the injury brought them down to 8, does that call for a forfeit?
Or only if it happened the other way around? 14-U PONY State Tournament.

I do ASA & NFHS. I believe for those, the sequence of when things happens is the deciding factor. If an ejection brings a team to 8 in this example, then the forfeit. If 5 are ejected which brings a team to 9 and THEN an injury occurs, play on w/ an out in the missing player's batting position.

Apparently they started 10.
If ejection and there is a sub, replace & continue, regardless of sequence.

If down to one fewer than started, then an ejection with no sub, done.

Started with 10, 1 EP, no subs. They took the outs when the injured player's spot came up.

For ASA, an ejected player must immediately be replaced with a substitute. If so sub is available, that is a forfeit. You can only play short handed due to injury or by not having enough players to start.

For NFHS, you may play short handed for any reason (injury, restriction, ejection) that takes you to one less than the minimum.


(note: I'm only replying to this quote, not the OP, as I am not familiar with PONY rules).

Personally, I couldn't care less what the player does off the field with her equipment as long as there is no direct affect on what is happening on the field. And no, I'm not talking about being a distraction.

Thanx, Slick

That's a learning for me. It's not come up in a HS game I've worked. Never worked a HS game where there was an ejection. Knock wood...

I'm surprised, Mike, that you wouldn't mind her blowing off steam with her equipment if you struck her out looking.

I'm not speaking for Mike, but I have the same opinion as he does.

An on the field demonstration like this shows up the umpire and the game, even if she is just mad at herself for taking that pitch. A player with enough self-control to exit the field without directing her actions or a verbal outburst at the umpire deserves to have her actions off the field considered her private business, in my opinion.

The point of the OP is about the shorthanded rule, subs for ejected players, etc.; not whether her behavior deserved penalty.

"Got me thinking...
IF batter had gotten tossed earlier, and the injury brought them down to 8, does that call for a forfeit?
Or only if it happened the other way around? "

I respect your opinion. But I certainly don't agree with it. If I can see and/or hear her actions, so can others, and that still shows up the umpire and the game. Those kinds of outbursts have no place on the field or around it.

And, No, I don't go looking for it. The tirade would have to be one that attracts virtually everyone's attention and just cannot be ignored.

Manny,

And that's why I mentioned not slamming them against a fence. Actually quite quiet. The helmet went into the tall weeds adjacent to the field.
I'd be more concerned about ticks than anything else.

Something that gets you whipping your head around at the sound may require more attention.

It strikes me that we are imagining different levels of outburst. I read the OP to be fairly contained, just included winging her helmet. It seems you are reading something a little more out there.

There is always a line somewhere; in this case, as neither of us actually saw and heard it, we can easily both be right (or even both be wrong!!) in how we would react to what we are thinking happened.

So if a coach or player gets ticked and kicks over the bat rack because s/he didn't like a called 3rd strike, you are going to toss that individual. At least, that would be in the team area.

If it isn't on the field or in the team area, and as stated before, doesn't directly affect the game on the field,IMO, it isn't the umpire's business

I don't know if you guys were being rule-set specific or stating what you believed to be generally applicable to all rule sets, but NFHS has covered this directly:

Clearly, the dugout is within the umpire's jurisdiction AND throwing any equipment is an ejectable offense. In a high school game, if this draws my attention, there is AT LEAST a warning issued.

And that's why I mentioned the severity of the outburst as being one that attracts everyone's attention. If it is a minor transgression, I won't react at all.

Also, I was speaking in general and not addressing the OP specifically. I agree that what happened in the OP wouldn't warrant any response.

Yes, the dugout is within the umpire's jurisdiction which I indicated in my responses. AFA, the kicking of bats, odds are you are not going to know who did anything with the equipment unless you are standing there, watching the dugout. But if you are watching the dugout, who is watching what is happening on the field. Yeah, I know that is picking a nit, but IMO so is acting on anything which does not affect the game on the field. We have enough to do inside the fences without worrying about anything else.

I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that the state HS league here places a great degree of emphasis on sportsmanship. Also, part of this is a safety issue for HS-age kids. And, the written rule deals with it directly and explicitly. If I only see the equipment flying, but don't know who, then a team warning follows.

Everyone has their "line in the sand".

Competition is an emotional thing. I'll allow a participant some level of initial reaction to a call they don't like as long as it's not too direct or personal by simply "failing to notice". It's how that participant handles themselves after the initial reaction that concerns me more.

Many players are simply blowing off anger at themselves i.e. for taking the pitch.

Yeah, you keep thinking that, and you'll have no issues. :p

The problem with no nipping in the bud is identifying where one crosses the line later in the game and the ensuing shit storm for why someone else was allowed to get away with it.

Throwing a helmet/bat on the ground/in the air in disgust has to be dealt with immediately and by the book.

If someone slams all the bats onto the ground in the dugout and the culprit really cannot be identified, I'd issue a stern warning that if anything like that happens again, coach is gone.

And where do you draw the line on enforcement? Within 10', 20', 30' of the field or team area? Maybe within sight which can be quite a vast area in some complexes. And what if PU & BU have different tolerances or area allowances and one team has a player dumped and the other get away with it because the right umpire doesn't see it?

The field and team areas are a definitive line with which I am more than comfortable remaining within during the game.

I think we are on the same page here as far a field and team areas.:eek:

I am also talking more about JO/HS ball, as opposed to the men's game where the decorum and tolerances can be vastly different.:(

As for PU & BU having different tolerances, I'd be surprised if any two had the same tolerances on any given day.:D