A simple yes or no......
 

These responses from a partner left me scratching my head after a "showcase" game this weekend:

Me (to partner in "C"), "Tom, did she go"?
Partner, "I can't be sure from here, but I don't think so".:rolleyes:


Later that same game:
Me (to partner in "A"), "Tom, did she go"?
Partner, "not far enough":eek:

I suspect that the fact that it was a showcase game kept my partner (and possibly me) from getting eaten up.

No big deal, but had to share..................

Reminds me of a story I heard from a HS game.

One of our trainers is working the plate and the other umpire (who will be called Bob) is on the bases. Runners on first and third, so the base umpire is in the C position.

Pitch comes in and there is a snap throw from the catcher to first. All the base umpire can see is A&E. What does he call? Safe? Out? Nope, his response was to point to the plate umpire and yell "bad angle!" The plate umpire said he was so in shock, he went completely blank on what he saw and the only thing he could do was single safe. He said to this day he has no idea if she was safe or out at first, but since he could not see her out (or remember what he saw), he had to call her safe.

And no, I was not umpiring, so I am not Bob. This story predates my umpiring softball regularly.

yep! :cool:

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, B3 hits ground ball to F6.
R1 passes right in front of F6 who fields the ball cleanly. No call by BU.
R1 then made a herky-jerky step and then started slowing down (presumably the ball may have nicked her foot thinking she was going to be called out.)

After play BU wanted to ask me if he should call the runner out "because she called herself out".

I asked simply did you see the ball hit her foot? Yes or No.

I know that I did not see the ball hit her foot and neither did BU.
No call.

I love these stories.

I have one of my own.

I'm coaching my daughter's softball team this summer. 8U. I'd give anything for girls that could catch, pitch, hit, etc. but we're having fun and we're doing OK. We're playing a lot of 10U teams and actually won a 10U tournament a few weeks ago.

We're at a tournament this past weekend and end up the 3 seed out of 12 teams. We had a game against the 6 seed on Sunday to advance to the semifinal.

One umpire with a HS player on the bases. Hey, he was actually dressed in a uniform, which isn't a usual thing for us. At this age level, there are so many modified rules I have a hard time keeping them straight, so it's no big surprise that they are different from game to game and umpire to umpire.

First inning of the game, there was a throw that got through at second base. My runner came to third and I sent her home. The plate umpire yelled at me and the runner, "ONE BASE ON AN OVERTHROW!" I was a bit stunned, but figured that was one of the day's modifications, so I said, "No problem. If I run a girl too far, just let me know and we'll put her back."

"IF YOU KNOW THE RULE, WHY WOULD YOU RUN HER?" Top of his lungs.

Wow.

Next inning, I had a legitimate question about a rule modification. I asked for time, was granted it, and walked calmly to the plate umpire to ask the question. Before I could get a sentence out, he yelled at me, "SHUT UP AND GET BACK IN THE DUGOUT."

Stunned, I went back towards the dugout and the umpire followed me. I turned towards him and he then said, "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU AND YOU'RE GONE."

I was so stunned that I think I said, "But..." and just like that, he ejected me.

I walked out without saying a word and ended up on a picnic bench in left field. After I left, one of my parents said something and he turned and yelled through the fence, "SHUT UP OR YOU'RE GONNA LEAVE."

The tournament director was sympathetic and came and talked to me and said I could return to the tourney if my team won. We didn't. My kid was an absolute basket case, but she pitched the next inning really well.

So there it is. My first career ejection on the other side. I still don't know what hit me, other than the worst umpire I've ever seen.

for UIC types only:
If you observed this, or had a verifiable report, how would you handle this with the umpire in question?

I just took a job as a high school commissioner here. That means I hire all varsity officials for 21 schools for all sports, softball included.

On Saturday, I watched a father/son team deal with the biggest jerk coach I ever saw - and this was also at the 8U level. He finally got ejected and then pulled his team from the field and forfeited.

The tournament allowed the team to play the next day, but the coach wasn't there.

After our game, during which they were absolutely great, I hired those two officials. The base umpire is the only 8U guy I've seen all summer who actually pivoted in and RAN from position to position. I was impressed. They maintained their cool and control when the coach lost his marbles. They were friendly and approachable. No clue if they have the talent to work HS varsity games, but they have all the people skills I could ever want.

On Sunday after my ejection, the first thing I did was make sure that the umpire on the plate is NOT on the conference staff. Figured he wasn't, but wanted to make sure. If he was, he wouldn't be after that display.

Our tournament director (we run two tournaments) has removed umpires (part of the deal with the assignor) for various reasons. Not often. Once this season, when he allowed a 14U travel team to play with 4 outfielders and then wouldn't listen to the other coach's complaints about it.

Shame on the PU.

I always pregame this (BU at C, pickoff throw to first) with my partner. At the higher levels (high school, college, good travel ball, etc.), this play can happen a couple of times a game. There should be no reason a PU goes blank on this play.

One colleague of mine whom I've worked with on many occasions up to and including Juco ball wants the PU to take this call as a deviation of the normal mechanic.

If I observed it, I would send him home after the game with my thanks and cross him off my list. There are things that you can fix with umpires... most things in fact. But in all my years, I have never seen a guy like this guy change his tune, no matter how hard you try.

Verifiable report? If it came from a very small handful of people, I'd do as described above. If it came from anyone else - I'd have a word with him and decide from his demeanor when explaining his side of the story whether to keep him or not --- and if I kept him, I'd make sure I had the opportunity to watch him discreetly as often as possible.

Very well said...and my thoughts as well.

Huh....what?....I stopped reading when it was noted 8U were playing in a tournament with umpires.

That's right. They should be playing on the swings and with dolls. :confused:

I'm posting this as me, and not as an admin...

I'm sorry if this offends, Mike... but considering who you are this continual beratement of places that play 8U seriously is insulting. There IS good 8U ball out there. Perhaps you don't have it in your neck of the woods, but it exists, and in areas where it exists, it should be encouraged, not insulted.

I don't get it either. After all, 8U includes girls who turned 9 in January (as my daughter, did). I have girls that are 7, 8, and 9. We go no more than 2 hours away, stay in a hotel room, take over the pool, have some fun family memories.

It isn't all THAT serious. We get umpires, for the most part, that you just have to tolerate. Lots of teenagers working with balloons and no shin guards. And the occasional power-tripping guy, apparently, that hit me when I wasn't looking.

I started the season batting them numerically in the order (from 2 down to 33) and only adjusted the lineups recently. I play all the girls in the infield and outfield. I use 4-5 pitchers (they have to get it to the plate) and 4-5 girls who want to try catching. All girls sit out about the same number of innings.

I'd be happy to umpire the games myself with a coach from the other team on the bases, but that's just not how it's done, here.

(But if you umpired for me, you'd make $100 for a DH or $75 if I hired 2 umpires. Why? Cause I'm an umpire and for those game fees, I'm hiring guys that are not only good umpires, but actually act like they want to be there. BTW, I hire one if I know that one can handle it.)

So, which is better, umpires you have to tolerate, or games umpired by coaches or dads?

Hiring umpires, especially the kind you describe, for 8U ball does seem like an unnecessary expense.

We're playing in a league where each town has 1-3 teams. I'd be happy to not hire umpires and do the games myself (and let my assistants coach), but I've been told it's a bad idea.

We did a ton of fundraising and received a number of sponsorships, so whether I hire a HS kid for $30/game or a top umpire for $50/game isn't a big deal. It's a bigger deal that I get umpires that don't call strikes over my kids' heads. Working really hard for them to swing at good pitches and it's amazing how quickly that gets undone by someone who calls nose-high strikes. :)

So, when you DO umpire games at this level (or even a bit higher level), how many complaints do you get from parents, fans, maybe even coaches, when you DO NOT call nose-high strikes! ;)

I umpire baseball games at this level for Little League. I may widen the zone a bit and use every bit of the knee, etc. but I don't go above the shoulders. Others' mileage may vary.

I wasn't asking about what you did, but what you didn't do that people complained about! Not calling the high "strike" is one of the most common complaints I get at the 12U or so level. Heck, I was watching a colleague umpire an 18U game last weekend where "dad" was loudly bitching because pitches at chin high weren't called strikes! (Maybe he was the pitcher's dad?)

From what I was told, yes they pre-gamed the situation of the umpire being in the C position and a pick off play at first. What was not pre-gamed was a yell across the infield "Bad angle". That is not how it should be handled in any way, shape or form at any level, let alone a pair of solid varsity programs. That was why he went blank, simply because the shock of how he was asked if she saw something different, not because he didn't see the play.


My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either 1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or 2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.

The one thing you never do is yell across the infield Bad Angle, Didn't See it, I don't know, or anything like that.

Also, umpire to umpire communications across the diamond should be limited to signals and not verbal communications (in regards to calls). These include appeals on a checked swing (safe or out signal) or infield fly on or off signal. The only time verbal communication should be used across the infield is when there is an alteration to a normal position procedure (Going out, I've got third, ect).

Wow, just wow. I've seen some uptight umpires in my day, but this takes the cake. You never yell at a coach when you are an umpire. If there is an issue, you talk to them in a calm and professional tone of voice. You can be authoritative if needed, but that is different from yelling. You also never ever follow a coach that is walking away from you.

The worst one though was the "if you say anything else, your out of here" type comment. The good news, he followed through with his threat. The bad news is you have now forced yourself into a corner as an umpire, because even if the coach says "ok" you need to toss them.

I have never seen an umpire get removed from an event in softball, but I've seen a couple instances in volleyball where officials have nearly been sent home (and in my opinion should have been). One was a varsity event where the officials was making all the calls, even though most of them were not his call to make. He was also very rude to the coaches when they attempted to question calls. Finally he was very rude to the event manager when his officiating was brought up. Thankfully they changed the schedule so he was not working the gold bracket matches in the afternoon. (Funny about that he said he wanted to start doing college matches, one of the parents of a team he screwed over on a call is a national level official (worked NCAA post-season play) and is the volleyball trainer for USAV. That ended any plans he had of advancing to college ball anytime soon. The second issue was an official who was yelling at a coach to the point of making her cry at a tourney. It was a season opening event and was freshman volleyball. She was a new coach (college graduate last year) and made a couple coaching mistakes. Instead of talking to her about the issues in a professional manner, and calling the issues by the book, he started berating her in front of the teams, fans and other coaches. Several of us who witnessed this wanted him removed, but the school AD refused. This is the only time I have ever been in favor of removing an official in an event.

The first official I mentioned from volleyball was removed from my assigning list for a sport I assign, swimming. I observed him at a meet that he showed up late to, and had no clue what he was doing. It was so bad I thought he was going to toss the visiting coach from the meet for questioning his starting procedures. (You can't start backstroke from the pool deck). This visiting coach is one of the most mild mannered coaches I have worked with, and never has he said anything to anyone that would warrant an ejection, but he was close at this SWIM MEET (I've heard of three ejections from swim meets in my life, and one was for a swimmer violating a rule repeatedly-jewelry).

I agree about the nose high strikes. We are repeatedly instructed to increase the size of the strike zone to "move the game along". I disagree with this in the majority of cases because it teaches bad habits. Now will I go an inch on either side of the plate? Yeah, but I'm not calling a pitch 6 inches high, low, inside or outside a strike. By forcing players to swing at pitches way out of the zone you are teaching them bad mechanics. Why? To speed the game along.

I think a lot of leagues need to look at the reason they have 8U and up softball. Is it to be competitive, or is it to teach the skills so the players can play at a higher level in the future.

Yours was one of the answers I wanted. :)

For us, there's no point in speeding the game along. In this tourney, it was coach pitch after 4 balls and we had a 75 minute time limit.

I think it's possible to do both. We play the games because the girls love it. Even when they lose, it's forgotten minutes later. But you can't simply practice all the time - kids get bored with drill after drill after drill.

Depends on the immediate options.

1) If I have a replacement immediately available, he sits. At least until we have a conversation that leads me to believe he understands that is unacceptable.

2) If I have no immediately available replacement, he finishes the day. Still going to try to have that conversation between games; if not possible, before he leaves. If not then, before he ever gets the chance to work another day.

3) If he doesn't get it, he doesn't work again. Period.

4) If the TD (my customer) wants him gone regardless the result of the conversation, the customer is always right.

We are in a customer service job. I use the following comparison when umpires question how much power the TD or coaches have, or should have:

If you walk into the local Waffle House/Huddle House/IHOP/Applebees/etc, where you have been before, are greeted by the hostess, and you tell the hostess there is a specific server you have had before, and wish to sit at ANY OTHER area, what would you do, as a paying customer, if that hostess told you that you had to sit in that server's area, just because it was his/her turn, or their policy? Would you even pause to ask to speak to the manager first, or would you simply get up and go to another restaurant?

That's pretty much the relationship umpire associations or UIC's have with the TD's. There's always someone else they can use if your service isn't customer friendly. I'm NOT saying bend over, I'm saying that customer service is a necessary part of what we do; the customer has to be really out of line to not be the primary concern. The very nature of officiating is inherently adverserial; we have to sell our customer service despite that automatic bias. We certainly need to support our umpires in their calls, following the rules, etc; but how they deal with the customer makes or breaks their ability to be effective.

To start, I don't get offended. That is a wasted and self-inflicted emotion.

8U needs coaches, not umpires. They do not need the BS that goes with competition at that age whether you think it is good ball or not.

Look at all the drama in this simple case, whether from a lousy or power-tripping umpire or the coaches and/or parents.

It is and always has been my opinion that at that age, the priority should be instruction, not competition.

I'm glad that Rich's team doesn't take it that serious, but that is some really serious money and I'm willing to bet there is a parent to two already getting their pens out to endorse an NLI :)

I could send you a couple of emails I've gotten from parents.

Too bad for them I don't really give a flying you-know-what what they think. :D

Well, if I were to go blank for every unexpected thing a partner of mine said or did, I would be catatonic practically every other game. C'mon, yelling "Bad angle" isn't something to get shocked about to the point that you can't help with a call!

Well, you're wrong on that one. On a checked swing appeal, the PU verbally asks his/her partner, "Did she go?" and the BU responds with a verbal "Yes" or "No" along with the out/safe mechanic. Are you telling me you don't do that in your games? There's also verbal communications and not just signals when one partner asks the other for the correct count or number of outs. Partner-to-partner communications uses both signals and verbal requests. And in times when a verbal is not expected, a good umpire won't go into fugue state when it happens.

Ehh... I'm not usually the first guy to jump in defense of Chap ... but "Bad Angle!" would throw me too for at least a second or two. Kind of like "TIE!!!" did last summer.

But would you have zoned out so much that you would have missed the call? That's my point.

I don't think I would have zoned out. I'm sure, however, that I would not be making a call before getting together with my partner. I don't know if "bad angle!" would cause me to react with a verbal call of my own... it would confuse me - I'd be wondering what he meant.

It would definitely be a cluster-F.

Personally, I wouldn't use 1) - if I'm going to make the call, I wouldn't imediately second guess myself.
If I had any doubts, I would be open to 2) - checking with my partner on a coach's request.

There is also option 3) - which has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association - and that is:
BEFORE making the call (but after visually making sure my partner is trailing), loudly asking my partner, "Did she hold the bag?"
or in the case of a possible swipe tag "Did you see a tag?"
The answer should be a yes or no with the proper signal.

This would only happen if it is pre-gamed and understood and I am working with a partner I can trust.
I'm still not sure if this is a deviation from HS (or ASA) mechanics or an accepted method.

This is an accepted mechanic in most of the baseball organizations I've worked for. But in softball, I've been instructed that we should never ask for help from our partner first before we make the call.

Same here. For both.

You mean the same as Manny said, OK for BB, not OK for SB?Or do you mean one of those (OK or not OK) applies to both SB & BB.

Like I said, this has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association (Softball Association), including input from a (now former) state evaluator) and I don't think we ever reached a conclusion.

I've been to a couple of NUS weekends since this first came up, but always forget to ask.

I meant the same as Manny said.

What I don't like about this is the part about "anything different".
I want "something specific"

If you don't see evidence of the defense tag the runner out, of course, the runner is safe. Screaming why isn't necessary, nor IMO professional. Again, didn't see the out, the call must be safe.

Pointing to your partner in this situation, or any time you haven't made a call, is not going for help! An umpire who does this is ceding or "giving up" the call. The call now belongs to the partner, like it or not s/he is in the same situation. If there is no evidence of an out, the runner must be safe. There can be NO discussion as the BU already demonstrated s/he did not see any evidence of an out.

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

That's a good question. At least it starts with a question much better than "anything different" or "what did you have".
Theoretically, the former (No, the tag missed," and be done with it) is acceptable, after all it is the BU call and that seems their only doubt.

Now, if the BU asks next "did you see anything else", you are back to non-specific; but I have to answer about the tag. Maybe being inconsistent, but is having both questions really a TWP?

Mike would prefer you say "They said..."

I would only be this picky in the content of the conversation if I was having this discussion with a coach asking me to go for help. Once with my partner, I will offer all I have and they (;)) can choose what to do with it. With my partner, I would assume they are (;)) capable of using the information appropriately.

I would offer the fact that I saw F3 come down with the ball on the edge of the orange bag prior to the runner arriving. I would also tell him that the tag missed.

It's then up to him to use that information and relay his decision to the coach.

Which makes me think about the many times I have been asked "Did she go" on a checked swing and I have been tempted to answer, "NO, but the pitch caught the corner" accompanied by a strike signal.:D
;)

So, BU screws the pooch twice?
a.) calls BR "Safe - Off the Base!" because of missing the white base?
Should have called Out before the attempted swipe tag.

b.) calls BR Out on an unseen tag, but announces TAG! OUT! ?
Should have called Safe and then gone for help if asked.

It is really hard for me to un-ring an Out without throwing your partner under the bus. BU "saw" the tag that didn't happen - judgement.
What is the lesser of two evils here?
- simply eat a bad judgement call
- or have the call overturned validating/emphasizing the mistake

IMHO the former will be forgotten and forgiven much quicker than the latter. I think we have all seen this happen setting the shit-storm in motion.
I see it as throwing good money after bad.

This would be discussed in great detail in the post-game debrief.

The OP read like not visible from "C".

Agree with these parts.

This is where the tough choices are; which gets back to whether the PU tells the BU about the base tag or just answers about the runner swipe.
I can live with being under the bus if we get the call right.

Not like that, but yes, you make it known as in, "No, I did not see a tag. But we may have a possible protest situation"

I guess you missed my point.

I was trying to address your comment that the BU should ask for something specific. He did. He thought he saw a tag so he ruled an out, and then he goes to the PU for help after the coach asked him to, and asks the PU if there was a tag.

Should the PU answer his specific question that there was no tag, and offer no more assistance because that's all that was asked of him? Or should the PU discuss the whole play and tell the BU there was no tag, but there was an out because F3 stepped on the bag?

In other words, are you an advocate for specificity, or an advocate for getting the call correct?

Therefore call the Out and wait for an appeal on a pulled foot.

In this case, specificity.
As BU I would only go to my partner with something specific, typically looking for a yes/no response..
Now there are questions that have a yes/no response that are not specific enough, like "Did I kick that call?"

I would wait for DC to come out and ask for help on unpulling the foot on the initial play.

Now if this was a rec game and a young umpire, I may be inclined to cut the partner some slack and use it as a teaching moment. The OP has all the makings of this. And if so, I would have asked why the tag call was relevant to the play.