mechanics again
 

I can't find the topic where we discussed signals for "nothings".

I was instructed to signal safe on any no-catch of an uncaught batted fly ball; although using the fair signal for those near the line.

This came up because of a trapped line drive which all the players thought was caught.

Opinions, confirmations, corrections ???

Officiate when you need to officiate it. This seems like a situation that needs to be officiated.

There is absolutely no reason to signal safe on obvious no catch situations. We would not signal "Safe" on a solen base play when the catcher throws the ball into center field, right?

I signal "Safe" on a close no catch and give a verbal 'NO" as well.

One the line, you only have three options, fair, foul or out. Anywhere else you have an out or no catch, though I would refrain from verbalizing it since many only hear the "catch" part which isn't a valid call.

Don't call anything if it is obvious other than a routine out, it that applies.

It is as absurd to signal a routine catch as it is to signal a routine non-catch. Plus, in most situations associations, the person signaling it is 150 feet away, is not the closest umpire and no one is looking back away from the ball to see an umpire that far away.

I observed an umpire this weekend that gave a big, double-pumping safe signal on EVERY uncaught fly ball hit to the outfield, even if no fielder was within 50 feet of the ball.

Where do guys come up with this stuff? Do they ever attend any training? Does their association ever evaluate them in games?

This was just one in a long line of goofy mechanics I've seen lately. Maybe that would be a good topic for another thread...

Esq, you frequently have interesting opinions. Just curious about this line of thought: Is it the distance from the play that reduces the value of the signal, or the obviousness?

Is there a difference? Increased distance would seem to equate to increased obviousness, wouldn't it?

In many circumstances, yes. I'm trying to probe for the rationale of an obvious routine fly-out signal from 150 feet being absurd, yet few would question the signal we make every time for an obvious swinging strike.

EDIT: Now I'm really thinking about this. In some cases, increased distance requires a stronger sell on close plays. (Example: Basically every close call we make from C at 1B in 2-man.) Why would the inverse be true: less "conviction" on the call when it is super obvious from a distance? I don't want an evaluator to think I am being nonchalant on the "easy ones", let alone the teams.

Again, and again, and again, and..........the signals are for those removed from the play and/or umpire.

And they are a matter of consistency. Few years back when playing in the Richmond round-robin, I ran into an umpire who had fallen into the "I'll signal when I feel it is necessary" mentality.

This guy was absolutely terrible. The problem with his belief was that his idea of necessary and the teams' were miles apart. He NEVER offered a safe signal and his strike/out hammer never got above his shoulder.

I believe it is a matter of routine, consistency and professionalism. And, again, a matter of communication.

I haven't been to a camp in a while, but I always thought the Out mechanic was required for all outs on the bases and all catches of fly balls, even when they are routine.

Whenever I'm the PU and I take the fly ball responsibility because my partner(s) come inside, I give a verbal (in normal voice) "Catch" and Out signal. When I chase as BU, I don't verbalize an obvious catch, but I do signal.

Are we now saying this is wrong?

Define "we"! ;)

Without resorting to schizophrenia. :eek:

Knew a schizophrenic once... he was good people.

"We" would infer to yourself and at least one other person.

I can tell you as a matter of fact, I'm not that person

In my neck of the woods:

1. We divide fair/foul and catch/no catch because it makes sense.

2. We don't come inside unless absolutely necessary.

3. We watch the ball.

4. Do not signal obvious catches any more than we would signal obvious no catches.

5. We believe that there is a close correlation between proximity to the play and correctness of the call.

ASA has a signal for a trapped ball in the signal chart from a couple of years ago (signalling safe and verbalizing "trapped ball").

Since ASA specifically deleted the word "trap" or "trapped" since it is either a "catch" or "no catch," I hope they removed or amended that chart to maintain consistency.

I was told last year that I need to give a foul ball call even when the ball goes directly to the fence.

While I don't doubt that that is true, that is class 101 in being an OOJ.

Really? I don't think umpires need to signal obvious foul balls but if that's how you figure out if someone is an "OOJ", I think you've missed the big picture. It's a minor stylistic thing that likely isn't noticed by anyone who doesn't umpire.

And here I thought that was reserved for people who do what they want because they obviously know better.

Wow, that's a little extreme, don'tcha think? I mean, we're talking about a subtle raising of the hands to signal a foul ball. It's no different than a subtle hammer on an obvious swing and miss, obvious fly ball catch, or an obvious putout of a runner.

Yes, if the foul signal is accompanied by a loud "FOUL!" call, I agree that's unnecessary. But a discreet signal is far from being over-officious, IMO.

It is completely unnecessary and amateurish. I can live with the out call on the bases when the out is obvious because the defense has executed a play, a runner is advancing to a base, you do have issues such as a pulled foot or bobble, etc. But to signal every foul ball that is up in the bleachers is an absolute joke. Umpires use mechanics and signals to communicate to each other, the team members and others who are watching. When grandma sitting in the bleachers at Yankee stadium 350 feet from home plate can tell when Jeter slices one foul, how is it at all appropriate to raise your arms to signal a ripped foul ball straight back to the backstop? Sticking with WHY we have mechanics and signals, what justification is there for signaling here?

Instead of raising your hands, why not reach to the ball bag and get the catcher another ball (assuming it went out of play).

Additionally, if you are going to use a signal, it ought to be done correctly. If you are going to half-ass it because even you have determined it isn't really important, then don't do it at all.

If I have 30 out of the park foul balls in a college game and I raise my hands every time, delaying the time it takes to get the ball to the catcher by 5 seconds, I've add 2 1/2 worthless minutes onto the game. I've likely also irritated the catcher who has her hand out waiting. That's poor game management.

And in case you missed my point, I DON'T want umpires to signal obvious fly balls. That's what lead to this discussion. Rather than pointing fair/foul on balls near the line that are touched by the defender and possibly dropped (a mechanic that is extremely useful and my save your ass some day) most associations want umpires to give worthless signals on obvious fly balls. That is amateurish. I feel stupid when in an NCAA game where I do what I am told I stick my arm up to signal a fly ball caught by the 2nd baseman. Do I really need to signal an out on a line shot back to the pitcher where she immediately fires to 1st for the double play on R1? Really? Who the hell is watching? Who cares? Who needs that communicated?

You keep bringing up NCAA and pro baseball. Do what you want at that level. I merely pointed out that in ASA, as instructed at the 18 GOLD Championship last year, we were told by NUS that we signal all foul balls. Unnecessary, perhaps. OOJ? Far from it.

Why signal a strike on a swing and miss caught by the catcher? Why not adjust your cup so the pitcher doesn't have to wait on you before making the next pitch?

I think the consensus is that this is correct.
Thanks to those who responded. :)

Your timing comparison is illogical and inaccurate. By your watch, every pitch would be a quick pitch. Keep trying though.

Who is teaching that? Signal every uncaught fly ball? Shall we do that on grounders in the infield too?

Where is the "Adjusting your cup" in the book ? If it is not there what do you do ? Watching a good MLB Crew, it looks so simple, doing an NCAA game you need to be in the game and not worry about a Foul Ball, get the F1 a ball, she is waiting for it. Work Smarter not Harder.

It is not a joke if that is what the umpire is directed to do. Unless you are the UIC, you have no standing to direct the umpire to do otherwise regardless of personal feelings.

Now, comparing this to the MLB is a joke.

I agree 100%. And so did my instructors and UICs in ASA and ISF who understood the differences in the vocation. It was often mentioned by a few that the ASA shouldn't have an advanced school for umpires, but a school for advanced umpires. Problem there is how can you become an advanced umpire without learning and executing the basic? Today's staff is hooked on black and white and/or the DVDs as the bible even though some of it is wrong. I've run into some NUS guys who hadn't been on the field for years and would rather have the umpire follow the given mechanics with no allowance for exceptions regardless of whether it makes or breaks the umpire's ability to catch the play and that just isn't good.

It has been years since ASA changed their training count and hammer mechanic. In the schools and clinics I held, I continued to teach the old method of reaching high and then dropping to a hammer. The reason was you need to know the path before you can arrive at the destination. Of those from the areas which went directly to the hammer, I was seeing guys and gals throwing that right arm out and up and down, even using the thumb to call people out. Reason I got was simply because they were told what the hammer appeared to be, but was never shown how to get there.

Then maybe you shouldn't pose when doing so. I doesn't take that long and you speak as if every other person on the field was frozen in their place, including runners and just waiting on you. In fact, any runners, often including the batter, are not on the base need to return and reset. Same with any fielder which was leaning and/or walking on the swing.

I agree that an umpire doesn't need to throw up his/her arms and make a loud call on the obvious foul ball. However, more often than not, I've had to get the catcher's attention to give him/her a ball to put into play. And depending on the game, I wouldn't be two quick to consider a ball appearing to be out of play too quickly. At some of the higher level SP games, I've seen a batted ball soar over the stands at 3B only to come back and clear a 325' fence in fair territory.

Starting in "C", R1 on 2nd, ball hit to SS, looks at 1st, then spins and throws to 3rd. If you stepped toward 1st to make the call, you are then straight lined by the runner, maybe also blocked by the SS. Do you have a preferred/taught solution to seeing the play?

yes - delay that first step & let fielder tell you where play is. And know that if the coach really wanted somebody on top of the call, they'd have 3 umpires.

Agree.

You should also be a student of the game and realize that with R1 at second and a ball hit to F6, R1 has no business running to third (unless she's forced by an R2 at first), and if she does, then the likely play with less than two outs is going to be at third base. Don't overanticipate and expect the play to go to first.

I get that, but I was talking about fielder motioning as if to 1st, after fielding.

Yes it has to be a force, forgot to say R2.

I was looking for a solution for after the SS motions to 1st, "then spins and throws to 3rd". Do you think continuing inward or trying to get back out to avoid the straight line?

Let the ball take you to the play. Don't move until the ball is on the way.

If F6 does throw to first, you are only going to get one or two steps, but you are already at a crappy angle and getting closer to the play doesn't really help.

By waiting, you allow yourself the opportunity to get a decent look and angle if R1 takes off for third and the throw goes there. Since third base is a lot closer to home than first base, it's a higher priority to make sure we can get a good look at any play there.

Thank you.