how many outs do you have?
 

No outs, runner on 3rd, 3-2 count on batter, on the pitch R1 at 3 steals for home, strike 3 is dropped by F2,* R1 sees she will be put out at home runs back to 3rd and gets caught in a run-down, Batter enters the dugout, R1 is then tagged out by F5. How many outs are there? ASA? NFHS?

Unless I'm missing something, this seems pretty straightforward. I can't imagine what you may be thinking that would lead to any other conclusion but two outs.

I think it is something we miss frequently, what is it?

In fed the ball is dead when the batter runner enters the dugout.

rule cite ?

8-2-4 Penalty The ball is dead and the runner(s) must return to the last base touched at the time of the infraction.

The ball is dead in ASA also. 8-2D Effect. One out, runner is returned to third.

8-2-d effect says slow pitch

That's under EXCEPTION. It is listed as EFFECT Section 2D-H, and is listed after rule H on p. 86.

No, it doesn't

And the Exception is to the out ruling, nothing else

So in slow pitch if there is a force and this happens, the ball is live. Is that what the exception is saying?

What is the (Slow Pitch) right next to the exception then under D?

As for the ball being dead, the last case book I have access to is from 2007 and in every instance in the case book for fast pitch when a player enters the team area it indicates the ball remains live. Have they changed the rule in the book since 2007?

It is to allow for HRs where the batter-runner is not required to run the bases, but simply go to the dugout.

The rule itself is a bad rule. And we've had this discussion before where it could deprive the defense of effecting additional outs on the play.

And, again, there was a proposal a few years back to keep the ball live that was summarily dismissed by the committees.

I don't have an ASA book, it is dead NFHS. So Fast Pitch ASA it is also dead?

Yes.

Thanks LIUmp, so it is the effect you noted in 8-2 d-h?

Yes. :) Though I don't like it, it is the rule.

Yes there are a lot of rules that in my opinion need changed. I guess I should start a thread about rules that need changed.

I agree, the rule penalizes the defense for an action which the offense made. Yes, the offense gets hit with an out, but they get an out on the batter-runner, not the runner who is in scoring position.

We may not have enough bandwith for that discussion.

Oooh, I feel sheepish. I didn't realize the rule required killing the play to call the BR out. :o

I have never done that; in fact, when a BR enters DBT after failing to advance to first on an U3K, I seldom make any signal or announcement. If she decides to come out of the dugout to try to advance to first, then I would say something. But that's never happened to me before.

FWIW, the NCAA rule allows for the ball to be kept live. So does every other organization I've umpired in (baseball-wise) except, I've now learned, ASA and FED softball.

Fed/ASA - 1 out. Everyone else - 2 outs.

In reality, though, unless you have a three-man crew, and/or the BR's dugout is on the third base side, who will likely see the sequence of events here?

Both umpires' attention will be on the rundown, looking for the tag, possible obstruction, a possible three-foot violation, etc. Who is going to see the BR enter her dugout at first base and immediately kill play? Good luck with that!

A fair point, and you're probably right. BU should have an eye partially on BR - he's still responsible for possible OBS and the touch at first base. I'd hope that he would notice, at some point, that BR was not where he thought he should be and would then try to peripherally locate him.

But yeah - his primary focus will be on his end of the rundown, so this could get missed.

Situations like this are where I disagree with bracketing rundowns in the 2 umpire system. With multiple runners, one umpire has to be responsible for the trailing runners.

In this specific situation, the PU would have the entire rundown between third and home as that is the lead runner and the BU would have the batter-runner.

Communication between the two umpires is the key here.