Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934264)

Hypothetical - B2 and B3 bat in each others place (B1, B3, B2, B4) and both reach. B4 takes a pitch before the defense notices.

Now B3 should be at bat after B2, but is on base.

What can the off coach do?

Sub for B3 on the bases and have her finish the at bat?
What if no subs available ?

Originally Posted by CPEM1 (Post 934269)

No, B4 is the correct batter at this point and a pitch has already been made, so there's nothing the defense can do to appeal at this point. Continue on with B4, then B5, B6, etc.

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 934274)

If the B4 pitch had not happened, B2 is negated, B3 is out and B4 is up.

Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934276)

I thought if the batter after B2 (B4 in this case) takes a pitch, that legitimizes B2. Which would mean that B3 should be up to bat and if noticed while B4 is batting B3 would assume her (B4's) count.

Since B3 is "unable to bat", she would be out and then it's B4's at bat.

1 B1 skip
2 skip B2
3 B3 out? no
4 skip B4
5 skip
6 skip
7 skip
8 skip
9 skip

Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934264)

Hypothetical - B2 and B3 bat in each others place (B1, B3, B2, B4) and both reach. B4 takes a pitch before the defense notices.

Now B3 should be at bat after B2, but is on base.

What can the off coach do?

Sub for B3 on the bases and have her finish the at bat?
What if no subs available ?

Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934277)

If B4 does not take a pitch, B2 is out for batting for B4 and now B5 is up. After B2 took a pitch, that reset the order to the batter after B3.

Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934439)

How so?


FED 7-1-5
"When an improper batter (B3) becomes a proper batter because no appeal is properly made as above. The next batter shall be the batter whose name follows that of such legalized improper batter (B4). The instant an improper batter's actions are legalized, the batting order picks up with the name following that of the legalized improper batter."

So B2 batting in B4's spot is negated and B4 is out. Next batter is B5. ("If B4 does not take a pitch...")

Ultimately, this is what I was looking for 7-1-6

When several batters bat out of order, a runner will not be removed from a base to assume their proper batting position.
If a player is on base when their position in the batting order is reached, they will miss their turn at bat with no penalty.

Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934277)

If B4 does not take a pitch, B2 is out for batting for B4

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 934474)

OK, this back and forth with 2 different scenarios is making following this tedious. Here is what fdt92 is trying to say (I think) in the modified scenario (no pitch thrown to B4).

B1, B3, B2, B4 and the defense appeals BOO when B4 steps into the box and no pitch has been thrown. B1,3, and 2 are on base.

B3 batted improperly for B2, but the defense did not appeal. Once a pitch was thrown to B2, B3's at-bat becomes legal and the batting order resumes from there.

This makes B4 the proper batter, with B2 batting improperly for B4. B2 gets on base.

The defense appeals B2 out of order before a pitch is thrown to B4. B4 (as the proper batter that B2 batted for) is declared out for failure to bat in turn, and B2's at-bat is negated, with B2 being removed from the bases and B1 and B3 returned to their bases at the time of the last pitch to B2.

B5 is now the batter due up.

That's what fdt92 is saying.

OK, explain how this is wrong. I don't think it is.

Originally Posted by nopachunts (Post 934493)

Correct batting order: B1, B2, B3, B4
Batting order for this scenario: B1, B3, B2, B4.

At the start of the batting order: B1 batted and reached base and a pitch was made to B3, B3 is now the proper batter without regard to B2 not batting.
No. B2 is the proper batter while improper batter B3 is at bat. Proper batter B2 could replace improper B3 at any time prior to improper B3 completing her improper turn at bat. But that didn't happen here instead improper B3 got on base.

If B3 gets on base, B4 would be the proper batter.
Not until a pitch is thrown to a batter following improper B3s time at bat. This is the defense's chance to appeal BOO: from the time improper B3 gets on base till the next pitch is thrown.

If B2 stepped into the box, and the defense appeals that B2 is the incorrect batter before a pitch is made, B2 goes back to the dugout and B4 comes to the box, no out assessed.
Improper B3 has just reached base, and B2 comes to bat. Defense appeals BOO before a pitch to B2. The appeal is honored. The batter called out is the batter who was supposed to bat when improper B3 batted, in this case it was B2. B3s improper turn is negated, other runners who advanced are returned. Since B2 was called out for missing her turn the next batter in order is B3

In your scenario, if a pitch is made to B2, B2 is now the proper batter. Not yet. B2 came to bat after improper B3 got on base. Throwing a pitch to B2 after B3 gets on makes improper B3s turn legal and the correct batter would be B4 as she follow B3. But B2 continues to bat..

B2 gets on base. The proper batter after B2 reached base is now B4 as B3 is already on base and that spot in the batting order is skipped over without penalty.
B4 was proper batter during B2s improper turn. If defense appeals before a pitch is made following B2 getting on base then B2s turn is negated and B4 is called out. Since B5 follows B4, B5 is now proper batter.

But if a pitch is thrown after improper B2 gets on and B3 is currently on base then yes skip over B3 and B4 is proper batter.

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 934474)

OK, this back and forth with 2 different scenarios is making following this tedious. Here is what fdt92 is trying to say (I think) in the modified scenario (no pitch thrown to B4).

B1, B3, B2, B4 and the defense appeals BOO when B4 steps into the box and no pitch has been thrown. B1,3, and 2 are on base.

B3 batted improperly for B2, but the defense did not appeal. Once a pitch was thrown to B2, B3's at-bat becomes legal and the batting order resumes from there.

This makes B4 the proper batter, with B2 batting improperly for B4. B2 gets on base.

The defense appeals B2 out of order before a pitch is thrown to B4. B4 (as the proper batter that B2 batted for) is declared out for failure to bat in turn, and B2's at-bat is negated, with B2 being removed from the bases and B1 and B3 returned to their bases at the time of the last pitch to B2.

B5 is now the batter due up.

That's what fdt92 is trying to say.

OK, explain how this is wrong. I don't think it is.

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 934274)

If the B4 pitch had not happened, B2 is negated, B3 is out and B4 is up.

Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934539)

Cecil first mentioned "if the b4 pitch had not happened..." scenario but his ruling that B4 is up instead of B5 had me wondering what I was missing.

I guess this is not a forum for a new umpire to seek advice.

All of the other forums I go to, it's the moderators that keep it civil, not the ones giving the rude answers with little explanation.

Originally Posted by fdt92 (Post 934277)

If B4 does not take a pitch, B2 is out for batting for B4 and now B5 is up. After B2 took a pitch, that reset the order to the batter after B3.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 934386)

2 short sentences. 5 mistakes. This is completely incorrect.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 934558)

If you're looking for advice, you're in the right place. If you're going to post answers as fact, and those answers are wrong, I would expect you to get corrected on any forum - wouldn't you? I didn't reiterate the correct answer because it had already been given.

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 934563)

That fine, and I agree this is a good umpire board that is generally friendly to new umpires (and even to coaches and fans), but wasn't his post regarding the modified scenario (which you replied as completely incorrect) actually correct?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 934636)

This is why when discussion a scenario (as opposed to a rule or application), it is in everyone's best interest to start another thread.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 934636)

This is why when discussion a scenario (as opposed to a rule or application), it is in everyone's best interest to start another thread.

However, if that doesn't happen, the poster should reference the scenario to which s/he is replying.

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 934654)

ditto!