CR for DP/Flex
 

Visiting team's Flex is listed as pitcher in the lineup. Before breaking up the pregame, visiting coach announces he's going to bat DP for the Flex.
DP gets on base, coach uses CR for DP.

It's a given that, since she was given a CR, the DP is going to have to face at least one batter (as pitcher) in the bottom of the 1st.

Question:
Whose responsibility is it to assure that DP comes out to pitch? The opposing coach? If Flex comes out to pitch instead, is she simply an unreported sub?

It is the intent of the rule that the DP bats for the FLEX. Did you mean to say that the coach inserts the DP on defense for the FLEX?

If that is the case and the DP (and now starting pitcher for the visitors) may have a CR in the top of the 1st. If the pitcher does not face the first batter (one pitch), it is an illegal substitute and can be discovered by either team or the umpires. (3-4; 8-9-2)

Sorry about that... of course she bats for Flex. I merely meant that, after DP gets on base, coach puts in CR...perhaps without forethought about the bottom of the inning.
At that point, (when CR goes in), it's our responsibility to make the coach aware that he will have to put DP in to pitch for at least a batter, no?
Guess that's just a courtesy on our part.

DP always bats for FLEX. If DP gets on base, CR is not allowed.
Do you mean the DP will replace the FLEX as pitcher?
Then yes, THAT PLAYER must pitch to start the bottom of the 1st.

It would be an appeal by the opposing team and yes, the ORIGINAL FLEX player pitching when the ORIGINAL DP PLAYER is required to is an unreported sub.

You indicated the flex was listed as the pitcher on the lineup. When the DP batted and got on base a CR should not have been allowed as the DP was not listed as the pitcher.

In FED, this can be discovered by either team or the umpires (3-4).

If the HC made the change at the pregame conference inserting the DP as pitcher, then a CR would be allowed and the DP (now the starting pitcher) would be required to pitch to the first batter in the bottom of the 1st.

If the coach did not inform you that the DP was going in on defense for the FLEX at the pregame conference, then you cannot allow a CR for the DP. It's too late. The HC had to make that known during the lineup exchange. Otherwise, what would prevent the HC from having a CR for F4 and then just trotting out F4 to face the first batter the next half-inning?

If, in fact, the coach was entering the DP on defense (and said so), then the DP must pitch to begin the bottom of the 1st.

However, the way I'm reading your second post, the coach did not state that he was entering DP as F1; the coach was apparently assuming that since the DP bats for F1, who is the FLEX, then (in his assumption) DP can have a CR. This should not have been allowed.

How did this transpire, exactly? Who told what to whom and when?

Cutting through the red herrings and assuming the coach, at the conference, told you that DP would pitch the first inning, the responsibility for ensuring she does so lies with the same people that have the responsibility for ensuring the person listed as pitcher on the lineup card pitches the first inning on any other lineup on any other day. With the same appeal possibilities if it doesn't happen that way.

The 2nd sentence of my OP has screwed this all up. Please try to ignore it.

At pregame, coach makes no reference to DP pitching for Flex.

Top of 1st:

Coach: "My DP just got on base. I want to put in a CR"

PU: "Can't do it, coach"
or
PU: "DP will then have to pitch to at least one batter, coach"

"Can't do it, coach."

Cant do it coach, your DP is not listed on the lineup card as the pitcher.

Agree. "Can't do that, coach." If the coach asks why, explain that the pitcher needs to earn her way on base to have a CR, and the DP is not the pitcher.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the coach shows the FLEX as the pitcher on the lineup card he/she turns in to the PU, I didn't think the coach could then announce a substitution of that pitcher (either by the DP or another player). The rule requires that in the top of the first inning, the pitcher listed in the lineup has to pitch to one batter.

So even if he/she tried to make that change during the conference, the PU should say, "Sorry, coach, but you can't do that."

During the conference you can do it.
After reviewing the line up cards and they become official you then should be asking the coach if they have any changes (usually dropping the Flex who is listed as the pitcher) at this point if the change affects either the Catcher or Pitcher note who the new one is. This is all done before the start of the game which means the player listed as such to start the top of the 1st inning is the only ones allowed a CR.

I guess I stand corrected then. But that's still not how I read the rule:

8-9-2: In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense (one pitch).

If Patsy and Cassie is listed as the pitcher and catcher on the official lineup that I accept from the coach at the plate conference, and I say, "These lineups are now official; any changes from this point forward are to be treated as substitutions. Do you have any substitutions that you would like to make at this time?" I always believed the coach can make substitutions for any player except Patsy and Cassie. Of course, the change could be made if either one of them became ill or injured; otherwise, Patsy and Cassie had to pitch and catch for one batter, by rule.

I also don't agree that just because the game hasn't started, those changes are allowed, but once the game starts, they no longer are allowed. There's nothing that I'm aware of that says substitutions at the plate conference are different than substitutions when play has commenced.

So, at what point can the visitors' starting pitcher on the lineup card for be substituted for, despite what 8-9-2 says? Only at the plate conference? After the conference but before coach retreats to the dugout? Right before I call "Play"?

NFHS Rule 8, Section 9 is titled COURTESY RUNNER.

The interpretation that I have been given is that all rules in that section are specific to the situation of a courtesy runner, including article 2.

The requirement for the visiting pitcher and catcher to face one batter in the bottom of the first inning only applies IF one of those players reaches base in the top of the first and a courtesy runner is used. If that was a blanket requirement, it would be mentioned in another part of the rules as well.

So...based on that interp and given the OP, once the DP got on base in the top of the first and the coach requested a courtesy runner, the umpire would be correct in denying the request. If the coach then said, my DP will play defense for my FLEX and be the pitcher, a courtesy runner would be allowed at that time.

Ok, I am wrong. I found case plays under FED rule 3-3 where the coach may substitute for the starting F1.

Did we just set a record for the fastest 12 replies? ;)
How about the fastest 18? ;) :rolleyes:

I guess this is the core of my OP... do all concur?

Heck no! She wasn't the pitcher when she got on base. It's that simple.

The only players who can have a CR are the ones who last played F1 or F2 on defense, OR the ones who are listed in the lineup as F1 or F2 in the top of the first. If they didn't pitch or catch last, they get NO CR. It has NOTHING to do with what WILL happen when his team comes back on defense in the next half inning. It's about who played it last. And in certain rule sets, a CR runs for the POSITION, not for the PLAYER.

In your case, jmkupka, "No can do coach."

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Umpire: Visiting Coach, your line-up is official. Do you have any changes?

Coach: Yes, I'm dropping the Flex who was my pitcher. My player listed as the DP will now play offense and defense. She is my pitcher now.


Discussion...

what is there to discuss, the DP is now the pitcher on the line-up card and is afforded a CR.

BTW AFA the thread goes, in ASA, I can find no indication that any player is ever required to pitch in any circumstance.

Agree...and the reason that it's important for all us to be more diligent in clarifying the rule set we're referencing when we're posting. It makes it confusing in trying to determine the correct ruling for the sitch in the OP.

That was a question on the ASA test this year. I spent a half hour in the book trying to prove/dis-prove it. Found no reference. For NFHS, yes, but not ASA.

ASA has no such requirement it is a myth.