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Moving the bat
Batter puts the ball in play, bat comes to rest straddling the path of all potential scorers (as it does 100 times a game).
Does anyone here pull the thing out of the way? Ever? Only when it's safe to do so? Always? Absolutely never? |
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Ive always been told to leave the bat alone. Once it is out of the batters hands and on the field it becomes a part of the field. If the catcher wants it moved, let them move it.
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If I can, I'll warn an incoming runner to watch for the bat. |
I used to but was informed by a local UIC to quit doing it. The reason given was the equipment (bat/catchers mask) is part of the game and if someone get hurts because it is where it is when it landed after it's use then we are covered. But if we move it and some one gets hurt we could be liable.
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What I found interesting as I transitioned to softball from that other sport with the small white ball is how 180 out the communities feel about this. In that other sport, we were told that if we could do it, move the bat, usually by bending down while watching play and sliding the bat back between the legs. In softball, however, we were instructed never to touch it.
Hell, I was even castigated when I picked up a bat after an inning ended and handed it to a player or coach as they headed for the dugout. |
Never touch the bat during play.
Manny getting yelled at for helping out between innings is kind of stupid (on the part of the person who yelled at him). |
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The rationale is that if you take the opportunity to pick up a bat between innings for one team, and the next inning you don't have the same opportunity for whatever reason, it can be seen as favoritism toward one team. The guy that told me this said that he would rather be thought a jerk by BOTH teams for not picking up the bat. He also advises not to touch the ball between innings, like pick it up and hand it to the pitcher...some pitchers and players are very superstitious about the ball...don't touch it! :rolleyes: |
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What the old white guy said.... |
No, for multiple reasons.
To start, it isn't my bat. Second, a discarded bat becomes part of the field Third, your attention should be on the ball, runners & defenders, not on the bat Fourth, as noted, if you do it for one, but better do it for both, every time. Fifth, is you move it, just where are you going to move it to with assurance it will not become part of the play? Can you imagine the crap you will here (and test of your insurance) if you move a bat to an area which the play goes and a player trips over a bat YOU placed there? Sixth, and most important, it still isn't my bat. |
Does the ODB's discarded bat(s) become part of the field? I.E. She drops the bat in the circle to move towards HP to direct a runner.
If a thrown ball hits that bat or a fielder trips on that bat while retrieving a loose ball, does it warrant a blocked ball and/or interference call? Thanx. |
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MTD, Jr., and I both umpire baseball and fast pitch softball and neither of us have ever moved a bat in either sport.
MTD, Sr. |
Understanding that rules are different for baseball/softball, does baseball, and specifically MLB, have rules for "stuff" in the OD circle?
Many times I see catchers having to tiptoe through bats, warm-up devices, rags, etc., while trying to catch a foul ball. If they trip over any of that, is there rule recourse? Thanx. |
Safely, carefully and cautiously remove the bat.
It is more reasonable and prudent for a trained adult to do this than an amateur athlete. Forget the 5 lines of BS that the old guard tells you. They lack common sense, legal intelligence and normal standards of care. The arguments they put forth are nonsense that has been passed down to them over the years and they have done a disservice to all by perpetuating such illogical and unreasonable thinking. |
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EsqUmp: As a structural engineer I would normally agree with you counselor but this is case if you are damned if you do and damned if you do not. If one leaves a bat near HP and a player falls over it, or one "[s]afely, carefully and cautiously remove the bat." and a player falls over it. Either case, if a player gets hurt, the "remover" of the bat will be the on considered civilly liable, and if you are even have the lawyer I think you are, you will be the one that sues the umpire and I do not mean that in a derogatory way. MTD, Sr. |
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Keeping in mind that ASA refuses to put in print that umpires are not to remove the bat, what seems to be a greater chance for liability: 1) Sliding a bat away from the plate where a runner is barreling in and can either be hurt by the bat or turn the bat into a flying projectile or 2) sliding a bat away 5 or 10 feet where no body is or where an on-deck batter or retired runner can grab it? Not once have I ever had a single issue removing the bat. So why not remove it? |
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Your statement in bold red is not different than the statements from officials and umpires who refuse to enforce jewelry rules. MTD, Sr. |
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And I do agree that most jewelry rules are absurdly too restrictive and unnecessary. I've never encountered an issue with NCAA players wearing jewelry. I've never had an issue at PONY Nationals where we don't operate as jewelry police either. |
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I've never once been hit in the groin with a ball, so should I not wear a cup? I have never been hit in the head with a discarded bat, so should I not worry about where the AA slings the bat. It only takes one time and there were no invalid points of those I made and you know it. And they certainly aren't "old guard" since the "old guard" would move the bat. |
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Interesting set of responses. Good read.
I used to move the bat when possible. I no longer make the attempt. If I was ever working rec league 8U/10U again, I might move the bat as needed. That said, my daughter has been playing 8U. While they are uniformly horrible, not once has the bat been an issue at that level. |
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Just because you have not had an issue with it doesn't mean that others haven't. This issue doesn't just fall out of the clear blue sky. It arises because situations arise. |
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I think earlier, someone, referring to his preference for removing the bat stated: Quote:
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Here is what we say about bat removal. I apologize ahead of time if this level of common sense offends anyone's sensibilities.
BAT REMOVAL • After hitting a ball, a batter may drop her bat into a position near home plate that might subsequently interfere with a play at the plate. When possible, umpires may safely, carefully and cautiously remove a bat without interfering with play. • Three criteria should be used in deciding whether to clear the bat: • Is it necessary? If there is a possibility of a play at the plate, you must determine.... • Is the bat available? If the bat is close enough and you can get it, you must then determine... • Is it possible? Is it possible to get the bat, move it and get back into proper position for the ensuing play at the plate? • If the answer to all three questions is "Yes," then clear the bat. • The proper technique for clearing the bat will allow you to keep an eye on your responsibilities and move the bat safely away from the immediate area of the plate. When grapping the bat, keep your head up and watch the runner round 3rd base. There is always the possibility of a missed base, obstruction, or a coach's assist. • Grab the bat firmly with your hand, point the handle or barrel toward foul territory and slide the bat along the ground. The bat should never leave the ground. • Slide the bat far enough so that it cannot be in the way, including if players adjust. Sliding the bat rather than picking it up and throwing it also minimizes risk of injury to an on-deck hitter who may be coaching the approaching runner. |
Now what about the catchers helmet which is generally laying somewhere in the general vacinity also? You going to move it too?
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"9.8 Equipment Blocked Ball 9.8.1 No loose equipment (that is, gloves/mitts, hats, helmets, jackets, balls, on-deck batter’s bats), miscellaneous items, or detached parts of a player’s uniform, other than that being legally used in the game at the time, should be within playable territory as it could cause a blocked ball. Official equipment that may be within playable territory with no effect includes the batter’s bat, the catcher’s mask or helmet, umpire paraphernalia, and any helmet that has inadvertently fallen off the head of an offensive or defensive player during the course of play." So, at least in NCAA play, an ODB's warm-up bat lying in the circle is specifically listed as loose equipment and may be liable for a blocked ball call. As for ASA, Rule Supplement #17 specifically states what is not considered loose equipment: "Official equipment which may be in live ball territory with no penalty includes the batter's bat, the catcher's mask, umpire paraphernalia, a helmet which has inadvertently fallen off an offensive or defensive player during play or any equipment belonging to a person assigned to the game." It could be inferred from that statement that the ODB's warm-up bat is considered loose equipment, since it's not listed as official equipment, unless the vagueness of "any equipment belonging to a person assigned to the game" allows for that interpretation. Frankly, I have no idea what that last clause means. NFHS is even more vague. 1-8-3 only mentions the batter's discarded bat and the catcher's helmet/mask as examples of equipment not considered loose. Bottom line: I would considered a warm-up bat on the ground as loose equipment in FED and ASA play. The ODB should be able to hang on to it during the course of play. |
Thanx, Manny. Excellent summary. I'm gonna copy/paste that because I know I won't be able to find it again in 6 months when I need it! ;)
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I think it again comes down to "when in Rome". As far as the groups and clinics I've been to, the subject either has NOT been specifically addressed our the advice was to leave it alone. To be honest, I think it is more the concern for appearance of favoritism (which like it ir not I have seen under the silliest of circumstances), than it is the safety issue. The bat is legally there and its being there our not being there can affect the play. If you move it, you have given one team an advantage (possibly). That's my take. If I find myself worrying for the people who wrote that directive, I'll consider moving the bat. |
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Gotta love it:
For the most part, people are advocating leaving the bat alone, saying they have never had a problem. I'm not sure how they are defining "problem" but I'll take their word for it. What I'm saying is that I know thousands of umpires who move the bat and none of us have had a "problem." Unless you consider someone saying, "thanks for getting the bat out of the way" a problem. So why are those who don't move the bat so adamant that those who do move it are wrong? Is it a "that's baseball" argument? I love that one. Why don't you all ask your associations to put it in writing NOT to move the bat? I can't wait for someone to say that not everything has to be put in a rule book or a manual. After all, it's not like ASA kills trees telling us to make sure we keep a stand-by plumber and electrician :rolleyes::confused::rolleyes: |
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The players are there to play their game on their field with their equipment, let them play the game on their field with their equipment. Then there is always the question of why is the PU hanging around the plate while there is an on-going play. |
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I did not hear the story directly from the umpire it happened to so cannot verify its truth, but I was told we did have parents locally that filed a claim against an umpire for a damaged bat. The umpire tossed the bat out of the way and it hit the chain link fence. Parents said it had broken the bat and filed a claim for damages. |
I had a catcher recently where on every batted ball she tossed her mask into the left side batter's box right where I was going. I finally explained to her that the ump will always go that way on a batted ball so would she please stop tossing her mask in my path. She said she didnt know and she stopped. :rolleyes:
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I've never seen (while umpiring or observing umpires): A) A thrown ball hit a discarded bat. B) A runner or fielder trip over a discarded bat. C) A play affected in any way, positive or negative, by a discarded bat (other than, of course, the batted ball hitting a bat or a discarded bat hitting a batted ball ... which is surely outside the scope of what we're talking about here) I do want to ask ... which of these problems have you seen happen that you and your association is trying to avoid by moving the bat? Quote:
A) Umpire missed SOMETHING while either moving to the bat or reaching for the bat (and yes, this can be fixed with increased training) - "something" includes more than one obstruction, one obviously missed base that I and everyone but him saw - that one resulted in an ejection eventually, one ball that was thrown out of play and the umpire incorrectly ruled where the runners were when the ball was thrown. Probably others in this category that I don't definitively recall right now. B) One threatened lawsuit that was settled. Bat was expensive. Player's father claimed bat was broken when the umpire tossed it aside into the pole of the fence. He didn't throw it hard - but it was enough to give at least a shred of validity to the possibility that the player's father was right. The league paid for the bat. C) One innocuous discarded bat was picked up and thrown aside, hitting an on deck batter who was behind the umpire watching the play. (Worse on this one, there was never any potential play at the plate - no runners on, typical single to right - no need at ALL for the umpire to even think about the bat ... but he did.) D) One discarded bat was picked up and tossed, landing on and breaking the snap on a discarded catcher's mask. |
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I don't buy the "broken equipment" argument. A player can take 500 hits at batting practice and drop/toss the bat every time they get a hit in a game and they want to blame the umpire for the broken bat? These are the same cheats and liars who want their entire 2002 Honda Accord painted when they get into a fender-bender. |
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A thrown ball hit a discarded bat a couple of times. A fielder (catcher) trip over a discarded bat. Runners trying to avoid a discarded bat several times. So therefore "C)" is true. If they have time I quite often see either catchers move a bat or a scoring runner grab the bat. I have also seen professional umpires move or even pick up a bat. Because they have 3-4 umpires on the field they sometimes have more time to do this than a PU in a one-man or two-man game so it may or may not be practical for a smaller crew to do so. |
Since there is no requirement to discard the bat, maybe there should just be a rule which makes in INT any time the discarded bat affects a play or player.
And yes, I am being facetious, but OTOH, why would this be a bad idea?. |
I've been hit by a thrown ball and a batted ball; I've tripped up both runner and fielder; I have never been intentionally moved by anyone during a live ball, nor have I ever been accused of interfering with a play.
What am I? |
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A base? |
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It's gotten to the point where umpires should do nothing but call the game like automatons and then leave. We cannot show emotion, we cannot engage in friendly conversation with anyone, we cannot touch the ball or bat or mask for fear of someone perceiving it as favoritism. When did softball become so anal when it came to umpires being caring? When I umpired baseball my first ten years or so, we would do things that nobody would bat an eye about. During between-inning warm-ups, if the catcher missed a pitch, the plate umpire would reach into his/her bag and toss another ball to the catcher, not make the catcher go back to the backstop and get the loose ball. The same was the case on foul balls down the line; the plate umpire would give the catcher another ball, and the loose ball would eventually get tossed back in to the umpire. On a play where the catcher would toss his mask off, the plate umpire wouldn't think twice about picking it up after play ended and handing it to the catcher. Same with the bat on a foul ball when the batter would run down to first and then come back. That kind of stuff is verboten on the softball field. And I really don't know why the powers-that-be make it that way. Do we really have to be less human than our baseball counterparts? Is it really that harmful to the game? Does it take that much away from the professionalism of the umpire? I just don't get it. |
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And I don't think it is the "powers that be" decide that as a control decision, but as a reaction to the players, coaches and parents. Again, JMHO |
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12U travel teams, probably not. |
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It's too much like enforcing the jewelry rule for varsity; but ignoring it for JV. |
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CecilOne: Why would you ignore it for a JV game? MTD, Sr. |
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I have seen less attention to jewelry, equipment, etc. by some umpires at lower levels; as if anything below varsity is beneath them/ |
Bat across the baseline
Today, during a JV game I was umpiring, we had the following situation occur.
Runners at 1st and second. Base hit to RF, the bat lands crossing the 3rd base line about 3 feet from home plate. Runner from second scores easily, but steps over the bat in doing so. The ODP is on the well away from the plate and makes no attempt to remove the bat. The runner from first tries going to third. Throw comes in and gets by F5. The runner bolts for home. Throw comes in towards the plate (high and to the first base side about 5 feet). Runner slides across the top of the bat safely into home plate. My first concern when she slide wasn't safe or out, it was healthy or injured, then safe or out. Luckily she sprang up grabbed the bat and went to the dug out. |
I don't work softball. The phrase posted above by EsqUmp is the baseball way. Plate umpire moves the bat if it's necessary, available, and possible.
I've also moved a mask or helmet or two in my years. Worrying about damaging such a thing is laughable, IMO. I've seen catchers intentionally lay the helmet in the baseline to obstruct a runner -- I'm either kicking it aside or if I have time picking it up and moving it. Different strokes. Guess it's good I know this before coaching my daughter's team this summer. (Actually I'll be happy if they don't throw the bat and hit someone with it -- they're 7-9 years old.) |
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b) I have not seen a player trip over a discarded bat, HOWEVER, twice this season (in 2 games behind the plate) I have seen a runner slide over the top of a bat which was discarded on the baseline just outside the batters box. c) I have seen discarded bats that have been tossed back and hit the catcher or umpire, but to my knowledge they have not actually impact the play. |
I am shocked, I tell you, just shocked!!!
I just watched the PU on the Oakland-Texas game kick the bat away as an Oakland player was coming into score, :eek:!
MTD, Sr. |
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I was being sarcastic because I do not believe that umpires should move the bat in either baseball or fast pitch softball. MTD, Sr. |
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