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Big Slick Thu Mar 06, 2014 03:03pm

Whatcha got - discussion of umpire mechanics
 
To keep the rule/mechanics discussions separated. To review, let's go to the video tape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaIlQg-PqMA&authuser=0

Since this is an NCAA game, the mechanics that covers this play come from page 316 of the CCA manual. And this is my critique, and is for educational and discussion purposes only.

Two ways to start this play: either move to the holding zone, as R2 is your responsibility if she doesn't attempt to score OR point of the plate if you read the play as scoring. Myself, I'm tempted to utilize the former in two umpire (the latter if three umpire and no chase).

The next step is crucial, positioning for the play. So what is the best angle to see this play? To me, anywhere from far edge of RHBB to middle of LHBB would be good (3BLX is a bit far in this case and might miss some elements).

That's just my observations.

topper Thu Mar 06, 2014 05:10pm

What you said, Slick, as far as initial movement. Though I couldn't see R2 as she approached 3B, it appears by the timing that an earlier read and decision to get home could have been made in order to at least approach one of the calling positions you mentioned.

Looks like he ruled INT on the play. Not sure about that one - although my angle ball/runner position at time of contact isn't great. I'm not too sure his was either.

KJUmp Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by topper (Post 926024)
What you said, Slick, as far as initial movement. Though I couldn't see R2 as she approached 3B, it appears by the timing that an earlier read and decision to get home could have been made in order to at least approach one of the calling positions you mentioned.

My impression of the initial movement from the plate was (1)lackadaisical/no sense of urgency, and (2) too close to the 3rd base line...which set the stage for (see bolded blue part above) not occurring.

No, we can't see what kind the PU attained on the play, but agree with Slick's assessment that (for me) the far edge of the RHBB would be provide the best calling position to see all the necessary elements of this play.

Regarding what occurred after the conclusion of the play, the comment made by the PU to the coach when he ejected him was highly unprofessional and unnecessary. I have to believe that neither PU's conference coordinator or DA would appreciate seeing that comment in EJ reports.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 926085)
My impression of the initial movement from the plate was (1)lackadaisical/no sense of urgency,


What urgency? Just where does he need to get to in a hurry?

Quote:

and (2) too close to the 3rd base line...which set the stage for (see bolded blue part above) not occurring.
This may be true, didn't see enough of it to know.

Quote:

No, we can't see what kind the PU attained on the play, but agree with Slick's assessment that (for me) the far edge of the RHBB would be provide the best calling position to see all the necessary elements of this play.
I would probably be a little farther up and back off the line from the batter's box, setting up and then adjusting to the throw and runner's path.

shagpal Fri Mar 07, 2014 03:18am

I like 3blx. that is my preferred default.

KJUmp Fri Mar 07, 2014 06:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 926088)
What urgency? Just where does he need to get to in a hurry?

Just my impression......you've got yours.

I look for certain things in an umpire that I like to see and consider important. On this particular play I simply did not like the PU's reaction to the play in moving out from the behind HP to (I'm assuming/hoping) the holding area. I like to see a sense of purpose in an umpire's movement on the field.....but that's just me.

You're a long time clinician, trainer, evaluator and national tournament UIC and I'm sure that you look for and pickup on aspects of an umpire's game both positive and negative that you personally consider important when observing umpires on the field.

If I were the guy in the stands with the clipboard doing an eval, realtime and watching everything else on the play I may have never noticed it or considered it an issue. My impression came not just from replaying the video numerous times both in the original thread regarding the ruling, and again in this one regarding mechanics.....it caught my attention the first time i played it. But, that's just my impression.....FWIW.







If I were the guy in the stands with a clip board evaluating that would be my comment.

Big Slick Fri Mar 07, 2014 09:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpal (Post 926104)
I like 3blx. that is my preferred default.

Unfortunately, no softball organization supports that.

Manny A Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 926105)
I look for certain things in an umpire that I like to see and consider important. On this particular play I simply did not like the PU's reaction to the play in moving out from the behind HP to (I'm assuming/hoping) the holding area. I like to see a sense of purpose in an umpire's movement on the field.....but that's just me.

And this is just me, but I feel umpires should strike a balance between hustling to get into positions to make expected calls, and casually moving to preserve stamina when no call is likely, particularly when conditions dictate, like in the Arizona heat.

Considering where the ball was hit--in right center to the fence--the PU had no real reason to move out with any urgency. The likely plays here would either be at home on R2, or on the BR at third base. Why should the PU hustle into the HA to watch touches of third, and then hustle back to prepare for the play at home?

Young pups love to bust everywhere on the field. That gets old fast as we get older. :p

azbigdawg Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 926137)
And this is just me, but I feel umpires should strike a balance between hustling to get into positions to make expected calls, and casually moving to preserve stamina when no call is likely, particularly when conditions dictate, like in the Arizona heat.

Considering where the ball was hit--in right center to the fence--the PU had no real reason to move out with any urgency. The likely plays here would either be at home on R2, or on the BR at third base. Why should the PU hustle into the HA to watch touches of third, and then hustle back to prepare for the play at home?

Young pups love to bust everywhere on the field. That gets old fast as we get older. :p


That's fairly accurate...it just looks bad...a couple of deliberate steps would have made a better impression. He is usually not that casual moving around....

EsqUmp Sat Mar 08, 2014 07:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 926126)
Unfortunately, no softball organization supports that.

Wrong.

EsqUmp Sat Mar 08, 2014 07:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by azbigdawg (Post 926138)
That's fairly accurate...it just looks bad...a couple of deliberate steps would have made a better impression. He is usually not that casual moving around....

Deliberate steps where?

When all of the elements are right in front of you, stay opened up and watch the play.

Once it was obvious that the second runner was coming around, I would have gone back to the point of plate / wedge and adjusted based on the throw.

IRISHMAFIA Sat Mar 08, 2014 05:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 926105)
Just my impression......you've got yours.

I look for certain things in an umpire that I like to see and consider important. On this particular play I simply did not like the PU's reaction to the play in moving out from the behind HP to (I'm assuming/hoping) the holding area. I like to see a sense of purpose in an umpire's movement on the field.....but that's just me.

You're a long time clinician, trainer, evaluator and national tournament UIC and I'm sure that you look for and pickup on aspects of an umpire's game both positive and negative that you personally consider important when observing umpires on the field.

If I were the guy in the stands with the clipboard doing an eval, realtime and watching everything else on the play I may have never noticed it or considered it an issue. My impression came not just from replaying the video numerous times both in the original thread regarding the ruling, and again in this one regarding mechanics.....it caught my attention the first time i played it. But, that's just my impression.....FWIW.

With the number of runners moving on the hit, I would rather the umpire take the time to focus on the field. I know we have all been reminded about vision and focus when running is not advantageous.

I would be more concerned if the umpire ran out to the holding zone trying to find the ball and watching the runners or watching something other than the approaching runners or, even worse, not getting the mask off. Unfortunately, I've actually seen an umpire move toward a holding zone with the mask still on.

After years of seeing umpires bust their tail to a position, but not be prepared if the defense made a play other than that anticipated, I've come to the conclusion that running is over-rated.

I prefer the umpire be alert to and aware of the progress of the play while moving into position. Mind you, I'm not suggesting the umpire NOT get into position, just temper that movement with the knowledge of what is going on in the field.

As it is in the OP, with multiple runners, I probably wouldn't have even made it to holding zone and retreated once I realized a play was coming to the plate and my partner was in great position to pick-up any optional plays.

shagpal Sun Mar 09, 2014 07:52pm

I work 3blx for college ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 926126)
Unfortunately, no softball organization supports that.


IRISHMAFIA Sun Mar 09, 2014 07:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpal (Post 926403)
I work 3blx for college ball.

I do not believe it is that good a position and, IMO, more difficult from which to recover should a better angle be necessary.

shagpal Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:04pm

I think it has its advantages and disadvantages. its great for offline throws that setup swipe tags and hook slides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 926405)
I do not believe it is that good a position and, IMO, more difficult from which to recover should a better angle be necessary.


IRISHMAFIA Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpal (Post 926410)
I think it has its advantages and disadvantages. its great for offline throws that setup swipe tags and hook slides.

But that may give you a limited view or options on a straight in play or when you have a smart catcher (granted, many of them are not) who doesn't reach for a tag

Skahtboi Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 926247)
Wrong.

I was wondering how many posts it would take for someone to catch that.

shagpal Mon Mar 10, 2014 01:18am

it also can give you a better look at OBS and ATR or not with respect to positioning of the runner and catcher. if catcher doesn't reach for a tag, then its a matter of blocking the plate.


Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 926413)
But that may give you a limited view or options on a straight in play or when you have a smart catcher (granted, many of them are not) who doesn't reach for a tag


EsqUmp Mon Mar 10, 2014 06:41am

Another clinician and I spent a 1/2 hour last night at a nearby clinic demonstrating calling positions for plays at the plate. We explained when should we use 1BLE and when should we use 3BLE; where we need to be in order to be able to adjust to either of these positions.

I am a big proponent of 3BLE. The number of times a catcher swipes a tag far outnumbers how many times she has the ball and the runner slides in. I have the numbers and photos to prove it.

With that said, even I wouldn't use 3BLE in this case. I would have been in the wedge and then rotated out two steps to get onto 1BLE. If there were to be a swipe tag possible, it would have to be on the runner's backside, which 3BLE is not designed to cover.

AtlUmpSteve Mon Mar 10, 2014 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpal (Post 926104)
I like 3blx. that is my preferred default.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 926126)
Unfortunately, no softball organization supports that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 926247)
Wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpal (Post 926403)
I work 3blx for college ball.

While you may use 3blx for college ball, the initial statement in this thread was using it as a preferred default. That (as a default) is NOT supported by the NCAA, and Big Slick is correct in his statement.

The NCAA mechanic is point-of-plate as the standard default, and then adjusting to the play to use whatever positioning allows you to see what is necessary.

As others have noted, there are times when 3blx is clearly NOT the place to be, when the catcher is set up to block the plate and the runner slides straight in; you cannot see if the runner reached the plate, and even have a poor position to judge obstruction (if contact occured before about-to-receive). On the other hand, 1blx is a bad place to be when the throw pulls the catcher deep and the runner then slides to the front side; and is weaker than 3blx when the runner slides to back door.

Each play is different; point-of-plate allows the most adjustments as the play develops.

KJUmp Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by azbigdawg (Post 926138)
That's fairly accurate...it just looks bad...a couple of deliberate steps would have made a better impression. He is usually not that casual moving around....

What I was really trying to/should have said in my post....so thanks for saying it better than I did.
Trust me, any time I'm able to catch a live stream replay of any of my college games I always see myself having had a couple of "WTF were you thinking/doing on that play" 'cringe' moments that make me say to myself, "I've got to work on/not let that happen again." You hate watching yourself at times but that's the beauty of video as a tool to catch your missteps.

KJUmp Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 926137)
And this is just me, but I feel umpires should strike a balance between hustling to get into positions to make expected calls, and casually moving to preserve stamina when no call is likely, particularly when conditions dictate, like in the Arizona heat.

Considering where the ball was hit--in right center to the fence--the PU had no real reason to move out with any urgency. The likely plays here would either be at home on R2, or on the BR at third base. Why should the PU hustle into the HA to watch touches of third, and then hustle back to prepare for the play at home?

Young pups love to bust everywhere on the field. That gets old fast as we get older. :p

Here's why....

There were runners on first and second, and a hit to the outfield.
In NCAA 2 umpire mechanics, proper coverage has the PU (based on how he reads the play) doing one of the following:
[] "Immediately moving to the holding area in foul territory between home and third base OR
[] If you read that there is no possible play at 3b on the lead runner but a good chance for a play at home plate:
-Move to the point-of-the-plate
-Read the throw and the catcher, adjust to the play".

(P.317 2014 CCA Manual)

Pretty much what has already been posted by BigSlick and AtlUmpSteve.

My 'young pup' days are a long way behind me, but if I feel my age and wear tear dictate that I have to cut some corners on proper mechanics when I work a college DH, then that's when I have to be honest with myself and call it quits working NCAA.

shagpal Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:21am

I prefer 3blx over 1blx the majority of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 926446)
While you may use 3blx for college ball, the initial statement in this thread was using it as a preferred default. That (as a default) is NOT supported by the NCAA, and Big Slick is correct in his statement.

The NCAA mechanic is point-of-plate as the standard default, and then adjusting to the play to use whatever positioning allows you to see what is necessary.

As others have noted, there are times when 3blx is clearly NOT the place to be, when the catcher is set up to block the plate and the runner slides straight in; you cannot see if the runner reached the plate, and even have a poor position to judge obstruction (if contact occured before about-to-receive). On the other hand, 1blx is a bad place to be when the throw pulls the catcher deep and the runner then slides to the front side; and is weaker than 3blx when the runner slides to back door.

Each play is different; point-of-plate allows the most adjustments as the play develops.


sunitanayak Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:38am

But how to recover ?

IRISHMAFIA Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 926459)
My 'young pup' days are a long way behind me, but if I feel my age and wear tear dictate that I have to cut some corners on proper mechanics when I work a college DH, then that's when I have to be honest with myself and call it quits working NCAA.

How many plays do you miss when you "cut some corners"?

AtlUmpSteve Mon Mar 10, 2014 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpal (Post 926460)
I prefer 3blx over 1blx the majority of the time.

At the collegiate level, where a majority of plays seem to be back door slides, that is a statement with which I could agree. But at an observation and evaluation level, we need to train ourselves to start point-of-plate and let the play tell us where we need to be to best call it.

On this play from the video, I have to believe that 1blx was much more helpful in seeing the ball arrive and the runner's actions going into the collision. If 3blx on this play, you would know the runner didn't change her path, and that the catcher drifted back to the runner's path, but you would then have to see through the catcher to see the arms come up, and have no information if she drove through with the arms or simply used them to protect herself.

I am confident that an NCAA evaluator would tell you that you weren't in the best position for this play if you defaulted to your preference.

IRISHMAFIA Mon Mar 10, 2014 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 926497)
At the collegiate level, where a majority of plays seem to be back door slides, that is a statement with which I could agree. But at an observation and evaluation level, we need to train ourselves to start point-of-plate and let the play tell us where we need to be to best call it.

On this play from the video, I have to believe that 1blx was much more helpful in seeing the ball arrive and the runner's actions going into the collision. If 3blx on this play, you would know the runner didn't change her path, and that the catcher drifted back to the runner's path, but you would then have to see through the catcher to see the arms come up, and have no information if she drove through with the arms or simply used them to protect herself.

And if the catcher holds the ball and makes the tag, you may not see that from 3blx which is what I have seen that bothers me the most.

shagpal Mon Mar 10, 2014 05:15pm

POP is our holding position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 926497)
At the collegiate level, where a majority of plays seem to be back door slides, that is a statement with which I could agree. But at an observation and evaluation level, we need to train ourselves to start point-of-plate and let the play tell us where we need to be to best call it.

On this play from the video, I have to believe that 1blx was much more helpful in seeing the ball arrive and the runner's actions going into the collision. If 3blx on this play, you would know the runner didn't change her path, and that the catcher drifted back to the runner's path, but you would then have to see through the catcher to see the arms come up, and have no information if she drove through with the arms or simply used them to protect herself.

I am confident that an NCAA evaluator would tell you that you weren't in the best position for this play if you defaulted to your preference.



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