Obstruction question
 

The Washington Officials Association has it's own test. I did well but missed one that I can't find casebook or rules directly addressing. (Or I may be missing it.)

Here's the question:

R1 is on third base, R2 is on 1st base, no outs. B4 hits a ground ball to F4, f4 trows the ball to F2 to prevent R1 from scoring. R1 gets into a rundown between 3rd base and home plate. During the rundown R1 is obstructed by F1. R1 is able to get back to 3rd base safely. During the rundown R2 had reached 3rd base. R2 is then tagged by f5 while standing on third base.

A. R2 is out.

B. The ball is dead as soon as the obstruction occurs.

C. Since R2 had reached 3rd base, R1 must be awarded home.

D. R1 is awarded the base she would have reached had the obstruction not occurred. Other runners are moved as....

(I don't have the last part of D.)

Rita

Speaking ASA

To start, you do not indicate what the awarded base should have been since there is no indication of the runner's progress at the time of the OBS. Let's assume the runner was OBS while returning to 3rd base.

Catch 22 - my opinion would be that R2 should be ruled out as R1 owns that base and you have a live ball. Since two players cannot occupy the same base simultaneously during a live ball, R2 was in jeopardy.

OTOH, there is another line of thought that would insist R2 was affected by the OBS, therefore afforded some level of protection. The counter to that would be that R2 safely advanced to a base that another runner would have attained safely had the OBS not occurred, hence R2 was not affected by the OBS that officially never occurred since the OBS safely attained the base to which s/he was entitled safely had the OBS not occurred.

Well, obviously B and C are not correct.

I agree that there isn't enough information to address this. The answer could be A if there was no way that R1 would have achieved home absent the obstruction. Or it could be D if R1 would have scored if F1 had not hindered her and what's missing from your answer says something to that effect.

R2 made it safely to third base on her own accord. She ran the risk of being tagged out if R1 made it safely back as well. I don't see how anyone could argue that R2 was negatively affected by the obstruction on R1 unless it was clear that R1 would have scored on the play.

I think the missing part of D is important. The answer was probably D.

If that's the entirety of the question, the question is worded poorly as it's missing a crucial piece - which base the umpire would have ruled that the runner would have reached absent the obstruction.

If home - award home, R2 stays on 3rd.
If 3rd, R2 is out.

I'm hoping verbiage to that effect was part of answer D.

The only word missing from D is "necessary"

That's rather vague then ... but it's the most accurate answer.

To all
 

This was the text of the question as it was. I wasn't worried about the last part of D because that was the answer I chose and it was reported as incorrect.

I also noted the question didn't describe which direction the runner was going but this was a high school test.

Since I answered D and that was incorrect and like Manny says, it can't be b or c, that leaves A to be the correct answer.

But I can't find any casebook or rule to back that up.

Rita

Rita, all you really need is the language in rule 8-4-3b PENALTY c:

"When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base, is obstructed by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to field a batted ball, or a fielder who fakes a tag without the ball, the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction, will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction."

In this scenario, R2 was never really affected by the obstruction, so she wouldn't get any base award here. She ran to third as runners are taught when a teammate gets into a rundown between third and home. The fact that R1 made it back to third safely puts R2 at risk, and she's going to be out on the tag unless the umpire judges R1 should be awarded home due to the obstruction.

If you're going to take that line of reasoning, then don't you have to hold it the same way when R1 is going to be awarded home? R2 still wasn't affected by the obstruction. Or are you saying that by not letting R1 get home, R2 was affected? If you're saying that, then why can't R2 be affected simply by the run down being longer. Not saying that's this play necessarily (obviously there's not enough in the question to know), but consider that R1 gets knocked down on the way back to third and would have been tagged there. Since she got knocked down she doesn't make it to the tag and scrambles the other way. The run down now continues and R2 and R1 slide into third. The obstruction definitely affected R2 in this play.

You have to take each play on its merits.

In this play, R2 was not affected whatsoever. She ran from first all the way to third base, as all runners do when R1 gets into a rundown between third and home. It doesn't matter if R1's obstruction was a slight bump or a complete knockdown to the ground. In fact, if R1 hadn't been obstructed, R2 would have done nothing different. There is nothing here that says the obstruction of R1 caused R2 to do something out of the ordinary.

Now, suppose R2 ran to third base because R1 was running home, R1 gets tripped by F1 as F1 is moving to back up a throw home, R1 gets up and scrambles back to third, and R2 reacts by heading back to second base, and she gets tagged out sliding headfirst into second. In that case, you could rule that R1 would have scored, and R2 would have safely achieve third, and put R2 there. That would be a case where the obstruction of R1 caused R2 to do something she wouldn't have done had there been no obstruction.

I assume this is ASA?
I do not do ASA at all so I guess I'm a bit confused. Why is it not Dead Ball immediately at time of obstruction during the run down?
(It is in NSA)

Yeah, NSA's rule could actually benefit the offending team. To the best of my knowledge, the only one that does.

Not a smart rule, IMO

It's the same rule in OBR baseball. Immediate dead ball and runner is sent home.

I like it because it encourages the defense to stay out of the way.

Rita

That isn't what the NSA rule is. NSA is the same as other softball, you place the runner on the base they would have reached had the OBS not occurred. That isn't always the next base.

[OBR] Only if a play is being made on the runner. (There was in the OP.) This is type A OBS.

Correct - However, in the case of a rundown - By Rule you DO award next base. And if forces other runners they move up also.

In the OP, For NSA one would have immediate dead ball. Award lead runner home. Trailing runner awarded base they would have obtained absent the obstruction.

Like I said, it stand to hinder the offended team and that is just outright wrong.

The OP doesn't indicate which base the runner was trying to reach when obstructed, just that the runner made it back to 3B safely. The runner may have been trying for home when obstructed and simply turned around. In this case, home would be the proper award to negate the obstruction.

I agree and noted such in my original response, but even then, by killing the play you deny the offended team from advancing, maybe even scoring runs on the play.

So he was wrong about NSA?

Thank you.

At the very least, I'm not alone in thinking there should have been more detail to the question.

What I found in the NSA rules is that NSA states that a runner being played on is awarded the base the runner would have attained had the OBS not occurred, same as ASA.

However, there is an exception for a runner obstructed during a rundown which will always be awarded the lead base of those the player was between during that rundown.

But again, IMO, killing the ball can penalize the offended team.

Play: bases loaded, less than two out. Ground ball to the pitcher, who throws to F3 for the out @ 1st base. F3 throws home and R1 gets caught in a rundown. After a couple of exchanges, as F2 is throwing toward 3B, R1 is OBS by F5 trying to get back to 3B. The ball gets by the player covering 3B, R1 gets up and scores as does R2 & R3 as the ball rolls all the way to the fence. Meanwhile, you are standing near the 3BL with hands in air ruling the ball dead (by rule). Now, instead of 3 runs, the offended team now only has one run and R2 & R3 are returned to the last base touched at the time of the OBS. Even if you ruled they were affected by the OBS, the best case scenario is that they are on 2nd & 3rd, but that still takes runs off the board that would have been scored had their rules been the same as most of the rest of the softball world.

In Fed, obstruction is a delayed dead ball. In ASA and/or NSA, is obstruction an immediate dead ball if a play is being made on a runner?

Not exactly - in ASA it's immediately dead if they tag out the obstructed runner - not just if a play is made on them.

So what is it in NSA. Have never used NSA rules so I am at a loss on this one. I'm see what Irish is saying where killing the ball too quickly can cause harm to the offended team.

NSA has an exception whereby they kill the ball (poor ball...) if obstruction occurs during a rundown.

As Mike said, it could potentially harm the offense by not allowing them to advance on a potential error. But also, how often do we see a trailing runner take an extra base (or two!) during a rundown - killing the ball early when the defense has not been able to tag out the runner even after obstructing them is not fair to the offense at all.

NSA kills the ball anytime the obstructed runner it the one on which the defense is making a play. The rundown exception just notes they will always get the lead base whether or not they would have attained it.

Now, my next question is, what defines a rundown?

True ... and good question. I think it's in the chapter about Hot Boxes in the section regarding Pickles.

IMO, a rundown begins when a fielder with possession of the ball causes a runner to stop: 1. advancing to the next base, or 2. returning the last attained base.

Which rule book?

Sandlot Baseball Rulebook :p

Anything like Calvinball rules?

So, a runner rounding 3rd as the throw goes to the catcher and the moment s/he stops or reverses direction, the "run down" as started?

Wouldn't that mean there would always be a rundown every time a runner rounded a base and stopped and a fielder within throwing distance had possession of the ball?

I understand what you are saying. Definition needs to be tweeked a little. Better?

A rundown begins when a runner stops their advance to a base because fielder with possession of the ball is between the runner and the base the runner was advancing to and a play is attempted on the runner.

You don't understand what he's saying.

The fact that YOU have determined your own personal definition of rundown is completely irrelevant. (Your definition doesn't match mine, btw).

NSA has put a term in the rulebook that has a bearing on how obstruction is ruled, and then completely failed to define it. THAT is what he's saying.

I understand.