2-30
I had an argument with another umpire at a clinic this am (not an instructor :)) who is adamant that you cannot call an Infield Fly if the person who will make the catch is an outfielder.
Rule 2-30 appears to leave room for the discussion. I come down on the side that says the purpose of the rule is to protect the offense from a deliberate miss that results in a double play. |
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A) Only balls playable by infielders can be considered for the IF rule.
B) Because he says so. |
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Not playable by infielder (reasonable effort), no. |
It is the weak definition of infielders as position players by the NFHS which could remotely allow for discussion.
I agree with the other umpire. If the player is stationed in the infield, they should be considered infielders. |
OTOH, the umpire could make the call, it would just be wrong :)
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Did Yogi ever say that? ;) :D :p |
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Mile high pop up just behind the SS. Easy play for SS but Outfielder clearly heard calling the ball as he comes in from Left Field...... LF attempts / makes the catch... I am calling IF all the way regardless of who actually plays the ball... |
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ART. 2 . . . Infielders. Infielders are usually the first baseplayer, second baseplayer, third baseplayer, shortstop, pitcher and catcher. The pitcher and catcher are also known as the battery. Now, compare to ASA" INFIELDER: A fielder who defends the area of the field around first, second, third or shortstop areas. NFHS cites actual positions where ASA sites the area the fielder is defending. In NFHS, you can only have one F3, one F4, etc. In ASA, any fielder in the position to cover the areas noted is considered an infielder. The OP clearly stated "person who will make the catch is an outfielder". I'm simply pointing out the ambiguity which permits the discussion The rule negates the definition since it states "Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule." However, since under that rule this defined "outfielder" is now considered an "infielder", how can an IF be ruled if the umpire has already determined the person making the catch will be an outfielder? If you feel like this is going in circles it is because it is. When I said it "remotely" allow for discussion, I guess that was a misstatement as I was trying to convey my belief that it shouldn't call for discussion, if not for the wording of the definition and the OP. |
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Q: Does the ASA definition exclude the "battery"? |
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Hey, it's their wording, not mine. Quote:
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I have often wondered why we expect an educational institution's publication to be clear and grammatically correct. :rolleyes:
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2-30 says right in the rule, "The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch."
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That's almost like trying to read interfering with an IF because a runner was hit with a batter ball. :) |
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My "opponent" took it to the top and got shot down.... said he plans to call Charlottesville (State Office / Interpreter) and talk to them.....
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The infield is in an extreme right shift, with F6 playing shallow center-right and F5 is playing in the nominal SS position, but shifted more toward 2B. F7 comes in to cover third, but still plays a bit deep. (You don't see defensive shifts much in fastpitch due to the small infield, but...) There is a pop up near 3B, F7 is the player who can catch the ball with ordinary effort, since F5 is in her shifted position, and F7 does make the catch. Taking the Fed rule literally, is this an Infield Fly? |
2 things. 1, I think some people argue just to hear their head rattle. 2, SS is positioned on the warning track. Deep fly ball and he catches it. What is your call?
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I have never disagreed that an outfielder "could" be the recipient of a batted ball ruled as an infield fly. After all, I was one of the first and few who defended the IF call in the NL series when the SS was under the all halfway to the fence. But at the time, that was a decision to be made. In this case, the OP left little to the imagination to anyone who wasn't looking for a way around the argument. :) |
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2. In this case the SS is an Outfielder and not an Infielder. |
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But consider this: Since in FED players may change defensive positions at any time, coaches are not required to announce those changes, and umpires aren't required to record them, who's to say the defensive coach didn't turn F6 into F7, F5 into F6, and F7 into F5 for the shift, and then return them to their original designation after they return to their normal positions? ;) Frankly, I'm not grabbing the sh!tty end of the stick and not making an IF call in your scenario. |
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Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or an attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on first and second or all three bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule. The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. The ball is live, the batter is out, which removes the force, but runners may advance at their own risk. The runners may tag up and advance as soon as the batted ball is touched by a fielder. If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly. Maybe I am just looking at this wrong, but to me the above bold underlined text says we could have 9 players we consider possible to have an IF on a given play. Now if we are argueing what is the infield again the definition of that is: The infield is that portion of the field in fair territory that is normally skinned and covered by the pitcher and infielders. This is to give someone a guideline not a hard fast dividing line. If SS is playing back 1 step in the grass is she no longer in the infield? I say she is still in the infield, and we could still have an IF in the case that she could field a ball with ordinary effort. How many fields are made to exact book standards when it comes to how much of the infield is skinned? Not very many, I know the local high school in my area had to get 12 yards of sod for one side and take out about 8 on the other to make it per the book when they redid it and made it per the book last year. I guess what I am saying is I see enough "wiggle" room with the normally skinned wording to enforce NFHS and ASA the same. |
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But you won't see me not making that call. |
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Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or an attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on first and second or all three bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule. The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. The ball is live, the batter is out, which removes the force, but runners may advance at their own risk. The runners may tag up and advance as soon as the batted ball is touched by a fielder. If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly. But Manny it states it right there in 2-30 The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. |
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Facts I believe we all agree upon: In spite of the wording, ASA & NFHS infield fly rulings and application to the player's position are relatively the same. An outfielder is one who does not meet the qualification of an infielder at the time of the pitch. An infielder is someone in the infield area at the time of the pitch, not someone who can simply get there quick enough to make a catch. An infield fly is ruled by the umpire when it is determined the batted ball which qualifies as one to which the IFR can be applied can be caught with ordinary/normal effort by any player which qualified as an infielder at the time of the pitch. Are we all on the same page so far? Now, to my statement concerning the OP. It is stated that the ball WILL be caught by an outfielder. Not may be or could be, I'm well aware that a ball ruled an IF may end up being caught by an OF. But the possibility of an infielder catching this ball has, IMO, already been precluded by the matter-of-fact statement that it WILL be caught by an outfielder. So, if the umpire has already determined that, how can s/he possible rule an infield fly? |
Can I ask what may be a silly question about all of this?? Why does it matter WHO catches the ball? After all, have not we already declared the batter out BECAUSE of IFR?? And actually by rule, even if no one touches the ball and it falls to the ground - we still have the out - 41 or 38 to go. So if the the CF catches the ball with the SS or 2B in the area....what does it matter - except that they put this in the book just so you can tell a coach/player, "It's in the book..blah blah blah"
Or am I missing something here? :confused: I am assisting at our HS clinic this month, and will ask our instructors, one of whom is the ASA UIC for New York.... |
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The situation I am talking about - and is going to actually happen is the pop up to shallow RF/CF/LF, with the SS/2B converging with whatever outfielder is appropriate. Whatever happens after the IFR call is made here is pretty much a moot point, as me and my partner are now concentrating more on the base runners actions. If the CF/LF/RF catch the ball - fine; if they don't - we still have the out, and the runners don't have to tag up. |
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Its a very fun field to work, as the league plays straight Modified A, using a nice dead Clincher ball. Pop flies that become HRs? Yes! Balls hit off the mesh that become forces at 2B or1B? YES! Still waiting for that first 9-5-3/9-6-3 DP though....:D LF, btw, is VERY deep - about 300 ft :eek: |
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