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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:36am
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Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
Is that introspection on your part?
No Dakota. I'm saying some people would argue just for the sake of arguing.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:22am
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Originally Posted by UMP45 View Post
No Dakota. I'm saying some people would argue just for the sake of arguing.
Do not!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:53am
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Originally Posted by UMP45 View Post
2 things. 1, I think some people argue just to hear their head rattle. 2, SS is positioned on the warning track. Deep fly ball and he catches it. What is your call?
1. True
2. In this case the SS is an Outfielder and not an Infielder.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:13am
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Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
I think I see what Mike is saying. The OP says "will be caught" not "is caught". I don't know if the OP meant it the way Mike seems to be reading it, but consider this situation...

The infield is in an extreme right shift, with F6 playing shallow center-right and F5 is playing in the nominal SS position, but shifted more toward 2B. F7 comes in to cover third, but still plays a bit deep. (You don't see defensive shifts much in fastpitch due to the small infield, but...) There is a pop up near 3B, F7 is the player who can catch the ball with ordinary effort, since F5 is in her shifted position, and F7 does make the catch. Taking the Fed rule literally, is this an Infield Fly?
In all honesty - I (and any umpire I've actually worked with, and not just read about on the internet) call IFF EXACTLY the same in Fed and ASA. So the wording is screwy in Fed - sometimes you just have to umpire.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:18am
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Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
The infield is in an extreme right shift, with F6 playing shallow center-right and F5 is playing in the nominal SS position, but shifted more toward 2B. F7 comes in to cover third, but still plays a bit deep. (You don't see defensive shifts much in fastpitch due to the small infield, but...) There is a pop up near 3B, F7 is the player who can catch the ball with ordinary effort, since F5 is in her shifted position, and F7 does make the catch. Taking the Fed rule literally, is this an Infield Fly?
If you take the FED rule literally, and consider that F7 is still the left fielder, No.

But consider this: Since in FED players may change defensive positions at any time, coaches are not required to announce those changes, and umpires aren't required to record them, who's to say the defensive coach didn't turn F6 into F7, F5 into F6, and F7 into F5 for the shift, and then return them to their original designation after they return to their normal positions?

Frankly, I'm not grabbing the sh!tty end of the stick and not making an IF call in your scenario.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:23am
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
In all honesty - I (and any umpire I've actually worked with, and not just read about on the internet) call IFF EXACTLY the same in Fed and ASA. So the wording is screwy in Fed - sometimes you just have to umpire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
If you take the FED rule literally, and consider that F7 is still the left fielder, No.

But consider this: Since in FED players may change defensive positions at any time, coaches are not required to announce those changes, and umpires aren't required to record them, who's to say the defensive coach didn't turn F6 into F7, F5 into F6, and F7 into F5 for the shift, and then return them to their original designation after they return to their normal positions?

Frankly, I'm not grabbing the sh!tty end of the stick and not making an IF call in your scenario.
The correct call is IF. I was only pointing out the seed of the argument that exists in the way the NFHS rules are written.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:11pm
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
If you take the FED rule literally, and consider that F7 is still the left fielder, No.
From the fed book:

Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or an attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on first and second or all three bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule. The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. The ball is live, the batter is out, which removes the force, but runners may advance at their own risk. The runners may tag up and advance as soon as the batted ball is touched by a fielder. If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

Maybe I am just looking at this wrong, but to me the above bold underlined text says we could have 9 players we consider possible to have an IF on a given play.

Now if we are argueing what is the infield again the definition of that is:
The infield is that portion of the field in fair territory that is normally skinned and covered by the pitcher and infielders.

This is to give someone a guideline not a hard fast dividing line. If SS is playing back 1 step in the grass is she no longer in the infield? I say she is still in the infield, and we could still have an IF in the case that she could field a ball with ordinary effort. How many fields are made to exact book standards when it comes to how much of the infield is skinned? Not very many, I know the local high school in my area had to get 12 yards of sod for one side and take out about 8 on the other to make it per the book when they redid it and made it per the book last year. I guess what I am saying is I see enough "wiggle" room with the normally skinned wording to enforce NFHS and ASA the same.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:33pm
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Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED View Post
From the fed book:

Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or an attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on first and second or all three bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule. The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. The ball is live, the batter is out, which removes the force, but runners may advance at their own risk. The runners may tag up and advance as soon as the batted ball is touched by a fielder. If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

Maybe I am just looking at this wrong, but to me the above bold underlined text says we could have 9 players we consider possible to have an IF on a given play.

Now if we are argueing what is the infield again the definition of that is:
The infield is that portion of the field in fair territory that is normally skinned and covered by the pitcher and infielders.

This is to give someone a guideline not a hard fast dividing line. If SS is playing back 1 step in the grass is she no longer in the infield? I say she is still in the infield, and we could still have an IF in the case that she could field a ball with ordinary effort. How many fields are made to exact book standards when it comes to how much of the infield is skinned? Not very many, I know the local high school in my area had to get 12 yards of sod for one side and take out about 8 on the other to make it per the book when they redid it and made it per the book last year. I guess what I am saying is I see enough "wiggle" room with the normally skinned wording to enforce NFHS and ASA the same.
No disagreement. I was merely addressing Tom's scenario where F7 is still playing deep enough into the outfield that she may still be considered an outfielder at the time of the pitch, but then comes in to make the catch near the infield. The FED wording of the rule would not support making the IF call in this case.

But you won't see me not making that call.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
No disagreement. I was merely addressing Tom's scenario where F7 is still playing deep enough into the outfield that she may still be considered an outfielder at the time of the pitch, but then comes in to make the catch near the infield. The FED wording of the rule would not support making the IF call in this case.

But you won't see me not making that call.
2014 NFHS rulebook 2-30

Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or an attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on first and second or all three bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule. The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. The ball is live, the batter is out, which removes the force, but runners may advance at their own risk. The runners may tag up and advance as soon as the batted ball is touched by a fielder. If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

But Manny it states it right there in 2-30 The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
No disagreement. I was merely addressing Tom's scenario where F7 is still playing deep enough into the outfield that she may still be considered an outfielder at the time of the pitch, but then comes in to make the catch near the infield. The FED wording of the rule would not support making the IF call in this case.

But you won't see me not making that call.
If F7 can get into the infield in time to make this play, she was probably close enough to be considered an infielder. If not the ball was so high that F6 from the shift (or F1) could have made the catch, so call the infield fly for that.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:08am
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Originally Posted by Insane Blue View Post
2014 NFHS rulebook 2-30

Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or an attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on first and second or all three bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule. The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. The ball is live, the batter is out, which removes the force, but runners may advance at their own risk. The runners may tag up and advance as soon as the batted ball is touched by a fielder. If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

But Manny it states it right there in 2-30 The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch.
All that is saying is that if an infielder could make the catch with ordinary effort, but an outfielder calls her off and ends up making the catch instead, that doesn't invalidate an infield fly call.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 08:31am
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Originally Posted by Insane Blue View Post
1. True
2. In this case the SS is an Outfielder and not an Infielder.
But not by the Fed's definition of infielder. The wording is goofy and yes, sometimes we just need to umpire.

Facts I believe we all agree upon:

In spite of the wording, ASA & NFHS infield fly rulings and application to the player's position are relatively the same.

An outfielder is one who does not meet the qualification of an infielder at the time of the pitch.

An infielder is someone in the infield area at the time of the pitch, not someone who can simply get there quick enough to make a catch.

An infield fly is ruled by the umpire when it is determined the batted ball which qualifies as one to which the IFR can be applied can be caught with ordinary/normal effort by any player which qualified as an infielder at the time of the pitch.

Are we all on the same page so far? Now, to my statement concerning the OP. It is stated that the ball WILL be caught by an outfielder. Not may be or could be, I'm well aware that a ball ruled an IF may end up being caught by an OF. But the possibility of an infielder catching this ball has, IMO, already been precluded by the matter-of-fact statement that it WILL be caught by an outfielder. So, if the umpire has already determined that, how can s/he possible rule an infield fly?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:37pm
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Can I ask what may be a silly question about all of this?? Why does it matter WHO catches the ball? After all, have not we already declared the batter out BECAUSE of IFR?? And actually by rule, even if no one touches the ball and it falls to the ground - we still have the out - 41 or 38 to go. So if the the CF catches the ball with the SS or 2B in the area....what does it matter - except that they put this in the book just so you can tell a coach/player, "It's in the book..blah blah blah"

Or am I missing something here? I am assisting at our HS clinic this month, and will ask our instructors, one of whom is the ASA UIC for New York....
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:43pm
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Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE View Post
Can I ask what may be a silly question about all of this?? Why does it matter WHO catches the ball? After all, have not we already declared the batter out BECAUSE of IFR?? And actually by rule, even if no one touches the ball and it falls to the ground - we still have the out - 41 or 38 to go. So if the the CF catches the ball with the SS or 2B in the area....what does it matter - except that they put this in the book just so you can tell a coach/player, "It's in the book..blah blah blah"

Or am I missing something here? I am assisting at our HS clinic this month, and will ask our instructors, one of whom is the ASA UIC for New York....
If the left fielder caught a ball 10 feet short of the fence that was not aided by the wind, would that be an infield fly?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:31am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
If the left fielder caught a ball 10 feet short of the fence that was not aided by the wind, would that be an infield fly?
IM - we have a league where the guy built his field on his farm, and the RF fence is only about 130 ft from HP - with a 30 ft mesh fence, literally a reverse Fenway (or Baker Bowl throwback if you will). So it is highly possible that on a pop fly during the IFR situation, that the 2B person could go out there with 'ordinary effort', thus triggering the IFR call, and the RF catching the ball like you said.

The situation I am talking about - and is going to actually happen is the pop up to shallow RF/CF/LF, with the SS/2B converging with whatever outfielder is appropriate. Whatever happens after the IFR call is made here is pretty much a moot point, as me and my partner are now concentrating more on the base runners actions. If the CF/LF/RF catch the ball - fine; if they don't - we still have the out, and the runners don't have to tag up.
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