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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 07, 2014, 11:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Blue View Post
No it would not the initial play is over once the ball was deflected.
No, even a ground ball being an initial play is not changed by the pitcher.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 07, 2014, 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
No, even a ground ball being an initial play is not changed by the pitcher.
Yes it is if it was deflected as in the OP re-read my rule reference post
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 07, 2014, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Blue View Post
No it would not the initial play is over once the ball was deflected.

Are you just trying to get us all to call an out no matter how legal the play is???

Here is the definition of initial play. What do you think after reading it? I am just getting opinions on the play. I hate this play.


See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 07, 2014, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
Here is the definition of initial play. What do you think after reading it? I am just getting opinions on the play. I hate this play.


See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".
That is true but you still seem to want to adjust the question over and over without enough information!
You said the fielder slows down and the runner slides between them. Is she sliding into the base between the bases why did the Fielder slow down and so on that is the problem with what ifs.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 07, 2014, 02:11pm
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I think the problem here is that Strike4 asked a question without specifying the context. Re-state the new scenario you want a ruling on, and we can respond.

Remember, though... interference with a FIELDER is ruled on via one rule; interference with the ball is ruled via a different rule (or rules, really). Often the ruling is the same, but we're discussing here (at least in the OP) one of the times it's not.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 07, 2014, 10:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I think the problem here is that Strike4 asked a question without specifying the context. Re-state the new scenario you want a ruling on, and we can respond.

Remember, though... interference with a FIELDER is ruled on via one rule; interference with the ball is ruled via a different rule (or rules, really). Often the ruling is the same, but we're discussing here (at least in the OP) one of the times it's not.
Here is the new scenario:


R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits a ground ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 stops just prior to running into R1 who is between her and the deflected ball. F4 would have caught the ball and tagged 2B for an out if the ball had not hit R1. Is this interference and R1 out? Would it have been interference if F4 had not stopped and ran into R1 while trying to get to the ball?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 08, 2014, 12:25am
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You cite FED rules in your original post, is it FED rulings specifically you are looking for? Under ASA rules once a ball is deflected the runner must do something intentional to interfere.

That is my problem with the wording of FED rules. Under 8-8-6 it recognizes on a deflected ball the runner does not necessarily have the ability to avoid being hit by the ball, yet under the strict wording of 8-6-10 they technically would be responsible for avoiding a fielder who is going after a deflected ball by the pitcher, but not any other fielder.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 08, 2014, 07:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
Here is the new scenario:


R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits a ground ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 stops just prior to running into R1 who is between her and the deflected ball. F4 would have caught the ball and tagged 2B for an out if the ball had not hit R1. Is this interference and R1 out? Would it have been interference if F4 had not stopped and ran into R1 while trying to get to the ball?
It is not INT with a fielder if an unavoidable deflected ball hits the runner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
F4 would have caught the ball and tagged 2B for an out if the ball had not hit R1. .....snip .... Would it have been interference if F4 had not stopped and ran into R1 while trying to get to the ball?
If that occurred ITUJ before the ball hit the runner, then INT. If that, then it no longer matters if the ball hits the runner, already dead.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 08, 2014, 08:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits a ground ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 stops just prior to running into R1 who is between her and the deflected ball. F4 would have caught the ball and tagged 2B for an out if the ball had not hit R1. Is this interference and R1 out? Would it have been interference if F4 had not stopped and ran into R1 while trying to get to the ball?
First off, you need to stop referring to F4 being able to catch the ball. That implies that the ball is still in flight. Not that it really makes any difference in the play itself, but the proper way to describe the play is that "...F4 would have fielded the ball and tagged 2B..."

Now, you say that R1 was hit by the batted ball as she was sliding into second base. Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm seeing F4 being able to field the ball and tag second base ahead of R1 if R1 is already into her slide here.

This one is so bang-bang, I would have a hard time ruling that R1 interfered with F4 before the deflected ball hit her while she was sliding into second. I would have to clearly see that F4 stopped or jumped back to avoid R1 before R1 slid into second base to rule interference.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 08, 2014, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
First off, you need to stop referring to F4 being able to catch the ball. That implies that the ball is still in flight. Not that it really makes any difference in the play itself, but the proper way to describe the play is that "...F4 would have fielded the ball and tagged 2B..."

Now, you say that R1 was hit by the batted ball as she was sliding into second base. Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm seeing F4 being able to field the ball and tag second base ahead of R1 if R1 is already into her slide here.

This one is so bang-bang, I would have a hard time ruling that R1 interfered with F4 before the deflected ball hit her while she was sliding into second. I would have to clearly see that F4 stopped or jumped back to avoid R1 before R1 slid into second base to rule interference.


You are correct in in the "fielded" wording. I think you see my point on the bang-bang part that makes this play a problem. Thanks.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 08, 2014, 07:16pm
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Initial play is irrelevant to the scenario in the OP.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 09, 2014, 11:51am
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A few years ago, I had ask our state (Texas) rules interpreter the difference between these two rules (2-47-3 and 8-6-10) to determine "Initial play or a Deflected ball" for a hit ball.

Rule's Interpreter advice
"You ask yourself, who caused the ball to hit the runner, if it was the defense, the runner is not out, if the runner prevents the defense from playing their game, it is an out."
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 09, 2014, 09:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex View Post
A few years ago, I had ask our state (Texas) rules interpreter the difference between these two rules (2-47-3 and 8-6-10) to determine "Initial play or a Deflected ball" for a hit ball.

Rule's Interpreter advice
"You ask yourself, who caused the ball to hit the runner, if it was the defense, the runner is not out, if the runner prevents the defense from playing their game, it is an out."
Was that Walter? Sounds like him.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 10, 2014, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
Here is the new scenario:


R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits a ground ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 stops just prior to running into R1 who is between her and the deflected ball. F4 would have caught the ball and tagged 2B for an out if the ball had not hit R1. Is this interference and R1 out? Would it have been interference if F4 had not stopped and ran into R1 while trying to get to the ball?
Given that the ball hit the runner - the fielder stopping is nothing - they had no ball to play. (See interception and catchable ball nonsense on the Gronkowski play... )

Question to the peanut gallery on Strike's follow up question --- if the ball hit R1, and then R1 and F4 collide... don't we have obstruction (and likely a quite pissed off coach!)?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 10, 2014, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
First off, you need to stop referring to F4 being able to catch the ball.
Interesting ... given that he typed CAUGHT or CATCH multiple times, I'm envisioning an airborne ball during this entire play - deflected but still in the air...
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