Team throws at PU
 

If this has been posted before let me know.

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That is one of my good friends behind the plate total bs by the coach.

Ummmm wow. What happened to the coach? The ump kick his ass?

Have seen posted in other forums supposedly coach was called in and threw the catcher under the bus. Said it was all her doing and he had no knowledge of it. Heard coach and possibly pitcher were reinstated and allowed to continue playing in the tournament. You heard anything from your friend of any fallout from it?

It did start making some news yesterday. Was picked up by USA Today.

Discussion on Ultimate College Softball Forum.

Aside from the fact that this is inexcusable, there are some things that your friend does that makes me wonder about his training or maybe softball is different.
He tracks the ball with his head.
His indicator is in his right hand.
A no sht foul and fair ball are signaled.

That's all I saw in the first half inning but if this is a college level game I would be surprised unless softball does it differently.

Is your friend trained?

I had this happen to me at Rising Stars in '06.

I posted on eteamz and Steve M said if I thought they were throwing at me they were!

I was too new to realize what happened, so I didn't do anything about it.

are you suggesting that you think he was not trained based upon viewing this video?

when have you ever seen a college coach wearing shorts while coaching a game?

Im wondering if he has had any training because in the full game video I noticed the head movement while tracking pitches and indicator in right hand. Those things would be corrected at any baseball umpire clinic. I think somewhere they say that this was a showcase for aspiring college players so that's why I presumed a college level game.

Page 238 of the ASA umpire manual

"The umpire then tracks the ball from the pitcher's hand to the catcher's glove or to the ground. Tracking the ball is the act of watching the ball from the pitcher's hand into the catcher's glove using a slight movement of the head guided by the nose. Tracking is not an exaggerated head movement or just an eye movement. It is a movement of the nose which simultaneously brings the head with the pitch as the eyes are locked on the ball."

As for the indicator, maybe he is left handed, maybe he has a physical disability with his left hand which makes it difficult to operate the indicator, who knows. I know a guy who umpires who does not have a left hand. Does being physically unable to hold or operate an indicator with the left hand preclude a person from being able to umpire? Bottom line is, what difference does it make if he was tracking the ball with his head, or if he had the indicator in his right hand to being purposely plunked with the ball?

I doubt that this was a college game

It was a college showcase tournament, it was not a college game.

He's obviously had softball training, since we get to uncorrect what tracking mechanics baseball umpire clinics screw up on softball umpires. It isn't physically possible to actually track a pitch all the way without moving the head; it's a shame that baseball is so focused on not moving the head that it forces their umpires to lose focus on the ball.

Just like he is supposed to do. What's your point?

There may be a reason, or it could just be because he wasn't trained properly, we don't know

Huh?

While it has nothing to do with the instance at hand, it is somewhat of a valid statement. Showcases in this area demand umpires of collegiate caliber work these games so the teams/players can concentrate on playing and not the umpiring.

That explains it then. Softball is different. Anyway, there is no justification for what happened and I look forward to hearing of severe ramifications.

Here are some articles that were posted at UmpiringSoftball.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...all-on-purpose

http://larrybrownsports.com/softball...e-video/212975

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/12/coac...softball-game/

all three pages seem to be dead...:confused:

Something appears to have happened when the links were copied over. Try these, I can still get into them.

Softball Game Ends After Umpire Is Plunked with Ball on Purpose | Bleacher Report

Softball team organizes play to intentionally hit umpire in face with pitch (Video) | Larry Brown Sports

Coach draws up a cheap shot for umpire during softball game | For The Win

I'm puzzled, because it was not head movement that got him head hunted, nor what hand he uses to hold his indicator.

what is the significance of pointing out such petty items?

thats just what some people do ... :-)

well, I would like to entertain his analysis.

Issues were highlighted by a baseball umpire.

lotsa baseball guys work softball too.

I can see how some baseball guys as well as some softball umpires might want to smack this guy down for his tracking and holding the indicator in the wrong hand. but when teams are head hunting, there are far more important issues to address.

Just because we watch a video for one particular reason doesn't mean we should disregard any other worth that it might have. Perhaps a new thread would be more appropriate so that people don't get side tracked. Since the issue with his indicator in his right hand was already brought up, anyone who is actually perceptive (not just looking to nitpick) would see that it is obviously apparent that the umpire has a problem with his left hand. He is unable to fully open up his fist or extend his fingers to give the count.

If a picture is worth a 1000 words, then watching a video is worth 10,000. Whether a clinician goes over things throughout the game to an audience or an evaluator tapes your game and gives a play by play, it's a great opportunity to learn what to do and what not to do.

is this a pertinent issue?

Since I personally know and work with this umpire I can tell you his training is top notch. He works college ball and has helped me become a better umpire.

As for tracking with the head (NOSE) that is the proper training for ASA.

If you watch the whole video you will see that his strike-zone is consistent.

Yes he is different in that he uses his indicator in his right hand but I know a few other old timers that do this.

From what I have heard I the coach has been dismissed but I do not have first hand knowledge of this.

I can tell you that most local umpires will walk off the field if this coach shows up.

I didn't watch the entire game video, so I cannot comment on the umpire's abilities. I'm sure, given the event, that he is quite capable to hold his own.

But I was a little concerned when someone from the stands asked where the last pitch was located, and he answered with a hand gesture. Presumably this was a parent in the stands and not one of the college coaches watching the showcase. Regardless, those kinds of questions from the bleachers deserve no answers, even nonverbal ones, because they only result in further criticism as you can hear in the video.

I read the comments on the Ultimate College Softball Forum board that "Dakota" provided the link to, and I agree with many of them. But I haven't been able to find anything doing a quick Google search where there were any repercussions, be they charges filed by the umpire, dismissal of the coach, college offers being rescinded of the players, etc. etc. It may turn out that the instigators, whoever they are, will get away with it.

JMO

that twirling hand gesture can also mean "same play", as in "infield fly" AGAIN. we used to use that in slowpitch, but haven't much since working fastpitch.

WOW. I've been plunked in the chest by a pitch or two, but at a lower level of ball with a very incompetent catcher. One time in men's fastpitch I had a catcher let a ball go by him, but never saw a catcher bail out like that.

^This^ Especially so because of the previous behavior of the coach, his outburst earlier in the inning, and the dopey comments by the "adults" in the stands.

Possibly, but highly unlikely given the timing of when the gesture was given. It happened right when someone asked where the pitch was.

And frankly, I've never seen that taught as a signal to partners, neither in baseball nor softball. Sure, it could have been something worked out at pregame. But giving it in the middle of a defensive conference, and right after the question from the stands? It clearly was perceived as an answer to that question.

Don't think it was possible it could have been anything but a response to the AA behind the backstop.

Then again, I've never heard of such a signal. Maybe we should just move to ASL for everything we do :)

this may have been taught by that south african sign language interpeter during obamas speech at the mandela wake.

the twirling finger means what? screw you? or would that be the middle finger? :p

what is the correct way? please Irish, inquiring minds want to know. :D

My association's softball trainer uses that downpointing circle signal to remind BU that the bases are now loaded and that PU ain't going anywhere. I think his using it just after a spectator hectoring question was only coincidence.

Since when (in softball anyway) does the PU not go anywhere with the bases loaded?

Oh, I don't know... I've had partners like that! :D

(But, then, they didn't go anywhere any other time, either!) :cool:

I only watched the short clip that was posted. After ball four with the bases loaded, the PU never removed his mask to watch the runner touch home.

I saw the coach approach from the 3rd base side, but at no time did I see the PU call time. Can't tell if he was asked for time or not.

And once players returned to their positions ready to resume play, I didn't see PU make a beconing motion to the pitcher putting the ball in play again.

I don't know how many of those things would be considered mandatory or perhaps the informality of the game lent it to be that way.

:rolleyes:

it must be for you the middle finger. :D

I would show you, but my ASL doesn't translate well on line

:p

I used to do this each and every time after play was killed...back in my baseball days anyway. When I started umpiring softball, I was told, despite what the books say, that it was essentially unnecessary to do this.

Kinda makes sense. In baseball where runners lead off, the ball must be visibly put back into play so that everyone knows a runner off the base is now in danger to be picked off. Also, appeals require the ball to be put into play (at least in those baseball organizations where deadball appeals don't exist). And pitchers cannot balk during a dead ball, so there are no violations until the plate umpire calls play. Don't have to worry about that in softball.

In softball, I've been told that play is assumed to be live when the situation warrants. I've sometimes wondered what would happen when a pitcher violates the illegal pitch rule before that assumption. For example, after time was called, the pitcher steps on the plate with hands joined, and then separates them before looking in for the signal. Should we ignore that?

I certainly would call the IP if time hadn't been called beforehand. But I ignore the "violation" when it happens at a point where, if I were to visibly call/signal play, I would not have done so yet. It certainly would be less of a issue if I did signal all the time.

I that true in all codes?
I still call "play" after a time out and some dead ball situations.



If yes above, then the pitcher stepping on when all else is ready, would seem to be "when the situation warrants".

It's a timing thing. When you visibly put the ball in play, doesn't it happen a second or two after the pitcher steps on the plate? You don't do it simultaneously to when she does, do you? So, technically, the violation occurred before you had the opportunity to put it in play, did it not?

The norm around here is to physically put the ball in play at the beginning of the game, and hardly ever after that. It took me a while to get used to that.

Just worry about stopping the pitcher from starting early or prior to a batter being set. Most folks on the field are often in a similar rhythm and it is often unnecessary. More likely an issue in SP, but do you hear umpires directing teams to play on every pitch since the ball is always dead at the end of the previous play or pitch?

If they are waiting on it or you have something that calls for the umpire to direct the teams to play, tell them to play. Otherwise, only worry about it when you need to worry about it.

Depending on the situation, there's been plenty of times I've simply acknowledged a coach with a simple hand gesture or a simple nod when they ask for time and then they go do their meeting.

If a team stoops low enough to plunk me like that, coach, catcher and pitcher are gone. Doesn't matter if the coach knew about it or not, coach is fully responsible for the conduct of their players, and some bush league stuff like that is going to get them tossed. I've got no problems giving a catcher feedback on a pitch if they ask for it. Once I had a catcher frame a pitch off the plate and when she asked what was wrong with it, I told her she wasn't even framing it in the strike zone. Got a nice chuckle out of her. I'm also known for having a pretty liberal strike zone so few pitchers get pissed off at me, except when they're batting (but at least they know to expect the big zone...:D)

It's already been said, but if I'm on the dish for this one, I'm tossing pitcher, catcher, and head coach. Next stop is an immediate chat with the tournament director and my UIC/tourney assigner.

I've been thrown *at* in a men's Class C FP game, but it was outside and two feet over my head. Completely different world, though, the men's game.

The mechanics are critiquable (a word?) but not absolutely terrible. There are only two pitches on the short video, but he locked in decently and was in the slot. Yes, the indicator is in the right-hand, but as is pointed out, there looks like there is something wrong with his left. I think his main mistake was allowing the defensive conference to go on as long as it did. I would have been moseying out to the mound long before that broke up.

If the coach is so hot under the collar that he's telling the pitcher to drill me, he's probably pissed enough to say a Magic Word when I break up his fiesta on the mound. Plus, if I overhear the instructions to hit me en route to the mound, he's definitely gone. Catcher might think twice about bailing out on me after I just cranked the head coach.

While I agree that the Men's game is a different animal, are you saying that you would not eject the pitcher and catcher (at minimum) if this same scenario played out in a Men's game?

If the scenario in the video played out in the men's game and I get hit (or it's remotely close), I'm ejecting F1 and probably F2. If F2 bails like in this video, I'm tossing both of them. Of course; no question.

Like all things in umpiring, circumstances dictate my response. The example I gave of being thrown at was a much less malicious act. It was a demonstration that he still had "some control" on his pitches after I quit giving him a rise ball strike that had crept up to the nipples...I was going to include that in my original response, but deleted it to stay on topic.