Lightning discussion

[chapmaja]

Ok, had this last night. We use the lightning is lightning, thunder is thunder rule. Last game of the night, 10pm starting time, so I'm under the lights. To the north I see the clouds lighting up a pretty yellow color. I don't see any bolts coming from the clouds, and I can't hear any thunder. DO I stop the game, which would have ended play for the night, or do I keep playing?


My decision was to keep playing after looking at the radar. The line of storms was moving due east roughly 45 miles north of the park we were playing at. I felt this was a safe distance and kept playing. Part of my reasoning was that if this was a day game, not under the lights, I would not see anything to cause the game to be delayed.

Was I correct in this decision?

[RadioBlue]

When you consider cloud tops of thunderstorms can top 50,000 feet, it is possible to see reflections of lightning in those cloud tops up to 100 miles away. Thunder sound waves do not travel nearly as far (only 10 to 20 miles). "Heat lightning" is just lightning so far away you cannot hear the thunder.

From a technical aspect, you were probably wrong to not delay (see lightning or hear thunder, wait 30 minutes). From a practical aspect, you probably did not endanger yourself or the participants.

Lightning can travel horizontally over 10 miles away. We had a HS track athlete killed in southern Illinois several years ago from a strike originating more than 10 miles away. It was sunny at the track meet. If the meet had happened at night, the lightning would have been seen approaching and the meet would have probably been delayed.

I was working the championship game at a 14U ASA/USA one year and we delayed the Championship due to a thunderstorm in the area, and rightfully so. The problem was, we delayed for 3.5 hours because we could still "see" lightning. In actuality, we were seeing the reflection of lightning in cloud tops which were over 100 miles away (and moving further away) after hour 2.5 of the delay...let alone 3.5! In the end, we finished the last 1.1 innings starting at 12:05 a.m. on Monday. Ugh!

So common sense says you did the right thing, but you did the incorrect thing "by the book." As for me, if it's a night game and I have reliable radar data, I'll wait until that storm is 50+ miles away and then restart. Otherwise, I'm going to delay. I like my house and my car.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

When you consider cloud tops of thunderstorms can top 50,000 feet, it is possible to see reflections of lightning in those cloud tops up to 100 miles away. Thunder sound waves do not travel nearly as far (only 10 to 20 miles). "Heat lightning" is just lightning so far away you cannot hear the thunder.

From a technical aspect, you were probably wrong to not delay (see lightning or hear thunder, wait 30 minutes). From a practical aspect, you probably did not endanger yourself or the participants.

Lightning can travel horizontally over 10 miles away. We had a HS track athlete killed in southern Illinois several years ago from a strike originating more than 10 miles away. It was sunny at the track meet. If the meet had happened at night, the lightning would have been seen approaching and the meet would have probably been delayed.

I was working the championship game at a 14U ASA/USA one year and we delayed the Championship due to a thunderstorm in the area, and rightfully so. The problem was, we delayed for 3.5 hours because we could still "see" lightning. In actuality, we were seeing the reflection of lightning in cloud tops which were over 100 miles away (and moving further away) after hour 2.5 of the delay...let alone 3.5! In the end, we finished the last 1.1 innings starting at 12:05 a.m. on Monday. Ugh!

So common sense says you did the right thing, but you did the incorrect thing "by the book." As for me, if it's a night game and I have reliable radar data, I'll wait until that storm is 50+ miles away and then restart. Otherwise, I'm going to delay. I like my house and my car.

Lightning can strike from as far away as 150 miles, so if you see clouds being lite up by lightning, you are seeing lightning. STOP!!, the game.

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lightning can strike from as far away as 150 miles...

No offense, Mark, but I really find that hard to believe, particularly if you're talking about an air to ground strike. Most of the authoritative sites I've visited say somewhere around 10 miles is the norm.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lightning can strike from as far away as 150 miles, so if you see clouds being lite up by lightning, you are seeing lightning. STOP!!, the game.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by Manny A

No offense, Mark, but I really find that hard to believe, particularly if you're talking about an air to ground strike. Most of the authoritative sites I've visited say somewhere around 10 miles is the norm.

How far can lightning strike?
Almost all lightning will occur within 10 miles of its parent thunderstorm, but it CAN strike much farther than that. Lightning detection equipment has confirmed bolts striking almost 50 miles away

-- National Weather Service JetStream - Online School for Weather

[Scooby]

I don't understand why umpires try to put their own interpretation on the lighting rule. If you see it stop the game. While it is interesting to learn about how lightening works, it is not really germane the enforcement of the the rule. Enforce it as written and if you want your interpretation of the rule to be the norm, try to change it through the appropriate process.

If an umpire chooses to substitute his own opinion for the rule that umpire is risking everything that he owns. To me it is not worth trying to play a game, even if it is only a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance that a player gets hit by lightening. And the same players that were saying that they wanted to play will be on the witness stand saying that they saw the lightening and you saw it too and you continued to play the game, in with complete disregard to the rules.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Scooby

I don't understand why umpires try to put their own interpretation on the lighting rule. If you see it stop the game. While it is interesting to learn about how lightening works, it is not really germane the enforcement of the the rule. Enforce it as written and if you want your interpretation of the rule to be the norm, try to change it through the appropriate process.

If an umpire chooses to substitute his own opinion for the rule that umpire is risking everything that he owns. To me it is not worth trying to play a game, even if it is only a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance that a player gets hit by lightening. And the same players that were saying that they wanted to play will be on the witness stand saying that they saw the lightening and you saw it too and you continued to play the game, in with complete disregard to the rules.

What rule?

[Scooby]

Which ever organization that you are working for. This is posted from ASA website.

All individuals participating in or observing an outdoor softball event are responsible for their own safety and should monitor threatening weather conditions. Before each practice, warm-up time, or game, the home plate umpire should appoint an individual as the designated “weather watcher.” If the home plate umpire is the only official at the event, then the home plate umpire should be responsible for the duties of the “weather watcher.” The individual will make the call to stop play, remove individuals from the field, and announce a warning to the spectators.

The designated weather watcher should be aware of weather conditions at all times, including observing the conditions and keeping abreast of the weather forecast. As a means of monitoring local weather, the designated weather watcher can consult the National Weather Service for current information. All storm warning and storm watches should be heeded.

When the weather becomes dangerous, the designated weather watcher will announce that all play activities are suspended and all individuals, both players and spectators, should seek appropriate shelter. No place is absolutely safe from lightning threat; however, some places are safer than others. Large, enclosed structures (substantially constructed buildings) tend to be safer than smaller structures or open structures. In general, a fully enclosed vehicle with the windows rolled up tends to be safer than being outside so long as contact with metal surfaces inside and outside the vehicle is avoided. The following areas are not appropriate shelter and should be avoided:

Any area of higher elevation; wide-open areas such as sports fields, tall isolated objects such as flag poles, light poles, or trees; metal fences and metal bleachers, unprotected open buildings like dugouts, picnic pavilions, rain shelters and bus stops.

When determining whether or not to suspend play, the designated weather watcher should use his/her common sense and good judgment. If a thunderstorm appears imminent before or during an activity or contest (regardless of whether lightning is seen or thunder heard), postpone or suspend the activity until the hazard has passed. Signs of imminent thunderstorm activity are darkening clouds, high winds and thunder or lightning. Even storms that are many miles away can pose a lightning danger. This may mean the appropriate decision is to suspend activities even before the first sight of lightning or sound of thunder.

All individuals should have the right to leave an athletic site or activity, without fear of repercussion or penalty, in order to seek a safer structure or location if they feel they are in danger from impending lighting activity. Safety is the number one consideration, the activity can be made up later.

If activity has been suspended due to lightning, the designated weather watcher should wait at least 30 minutes after the last lightning flash or sound of thunder prior to resuming activity. Each time additional lightning is observed or thunder is heard, the minimum 30-minute waiting period should be reset. A clear sky or lack of rainfall are not adequate indicators for resuming play. The minimum 30-minute return-to-play waiting period should not be shortened. Play should not be resumed even after the 30 minute waiting period if any signs of thunderstorm activity remain in the area or if the weather forecast indicates the threat is not over.

NO LIGHTNING SAFETY GUIDELINES CAN GUARANTEE ABSOLUTE SAFETY. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EVERY PERSON TO BE AWARE OF WEATHER CONDITIONS AND TAKE APPROPRIATE ACTION TO BE SAFE. USE COMMON SENSE AND GOOD JUDGEMENT. PLAN AHEAD AND MAKE SAFETY YOUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Which ever organization that you are working for. This is posted from ASA website.

All individuals participating in or observing an outdoor softball event are responsible for their own safety and should monitor threatening weather [snip for brevity}

That's fine and dandy, but doesn't answer my question.

[chapmaja]

The morning after those games, I contacted my boss, who said he saw the same thing, and his decision would have been the same as mine was. He would have kept playing the games and kept an eye on the weather as well.

The boss had a very similar view of the weather as he lives within a couple miles of the facility we were using. The park I was working does not have detection equipment, however two other parks in the city do. Neither park had the detection equipment activate that evening.