Lessons Learned from 18U Gold (Long Post)
 

Just a few observations from my time spent working the 18U Gold in Clearwater. Overall, everything was pretty much by the ASA Umpire Manual, as expected. There were some things I learned that the Manual doesn’t cover, or if it does, I didn’t really know about it until I got dinged during my evals. :p Hope these help some of you in your three-man ASA tourneys.

1. The Safe mechanic when you judge a violation did not happen is not an approved mechanic. For example, a runner barely avoids being hit by a batted ball. We are not to give a Safe sign to let everyone know there was no violation.

2. The Timing Play signal (two fingers to the wrist) is not an approved mechanic. Neither is the sweep motion to signal a fielder came off the bag too soon on a force play.

3. Signaling all foul balls, even obvious ones, is expected. However, there is no verbal required on those obvious ones.

4. Helping the PU on swinging third strikes near the ground (fist for a catch, pointing down for a no catch) is not an approved mechanic. The BU who sees a catch may nod if the PU looks for help.

5. If U1 chases with no runners on base, U3 is responsible for any plays on the BR at first. U3 has to hightail it across the diamond to take responsibility. Even though the PU trails, the PU does not take the call at first.

6. U1 and U3 are not to go into foul territory to make calls at their bases. For example, no runners and the batter hits a sharp grounder to F9. F9 throws to first to play on the BR. U1 either button-hooks in to take the call (preferred option), or takes a step into fair territory to make it.

7. Foul pop-ups between home plate and the BU positions are not to be bracketed. For example, batter pops up a foul toward the first base dugout that both F2 and F3 move to make the play. U1 is NOT supposed to move toward the fence to help the PU watch the play.

8. When the ball is back in the circle after play ends, the umpire at the plate (PU normally, or U1 if the crew performed a full rotation) shall always call Time so that the crew can quickly get into their positions for the next pitch. Do not waste time by moving individually into position while partners watch runners.

9. There are no holding zones when nobody chases. After the PU trails the BR on a hit to the outfield, the PU should move directly to third base in fair territory, and U1 should move directly behind home plate, after the BR commits to second. The same is true when R1 reaches second on a batted ball.

10. The on-deck circle must be ruthlessly enforced. Between innings, only the lead-off batter may be out of the dugout, and she must be in the circle. Also ruthlessly enforce the one-foot-in-the-box rule on batters.

As for uniformity on old and new logos, there were no problems with it. Crews mixed and matched logos often, and in some cases, one umpire would mix (e.g., old shirt with new hat).

If I remember anything else that’s peculiar, I’ll mention it.

Would like Mike's and Steve's takes on these. I slightly disagree with some, strongly disagree with others, and have been "dinged" for exactly the opposite of what you were told here on at least 3.

Manny's list is a good one. This is exactly how we were told to do things in Clearwater last week. As for not bracketing foul popups, it made for some interesting situations. The team areas were comprised of a fence inside the "main" fence. Therefore, if U1 or U3 didn't "chase" on a popup just beyond the dugouts (which ended just past 1st & 3rd bases), the PU would have to look down through the dugout to get a look. This was best handled by either U1 or U3 to call "going" and heading for the fence.

Me, too. Well, you can't really disagree with a statement that something is "not an approved mechanic", but you can have the opinion that it either should be approved, or at least tolerated (i.e. no negative comment in an eval). The only one I would say I "strongly" disagree with is #6. Stating it that absolutely is the disagreement. Hanging out in foul territory can be a lazy thing to do, but there are situations where it is the only thing to do without getting in the middle of the play.

Most of what you enumerated is ASA mechanics vs NCAA mechanics.

When in Rome....

I can disagree with a statement that something is not an approved mechanic when someone just as high as these guys said it was, or dinged umpires for not doing it. (Specifically the swipe signal and signalling safe when there may be confusion on whether a violation happened.

I personally heard 2 of the 3 Texas commissioners (on separate occasions) illustrate the BU helping PU on a possible dropped strike. (Only one of the two mentioned pointing down on a drop, but both advocated the fist if you actively saw the catcher catch the ball)

6 - well, it should be avoided, but it happens... I'd say that if it happens to you more than once or twice a year, you're probably not being quick enough about judging that you CAN get to a button hook without getting in the way. But it DOES happen, and "do no harm" should come first.

7 is one of the ones I was personally dinged on at a state clinic just 2 seasons ago. I was dinged for NOT bracketing from U1 on a ball near the fence/dugout on my side.

8 is directly in conflict with what we've been told fifty-something times at all sorts of levels. DON'T call time just to get umpires in position, and DO move such that we are not all moving at once without eyes on the field. To the point that when I see a new U1, U3, or BU partner simply running back to his spot before without making eye contact with his partner(s), it irks me.

(I do agree with, and have been taught in agreement with 2(tap), 3, 5, 9, and 10)

Like I said, it was the absolute way it is stated that I disagree with.
Maybe Mike was the UIC? :D

Well, it wasn't stated to us in absolute, so I apologize if that's what it sounded like. There are always a couple of exceptions where a call from foul ground would have to happen. They just emphasized that foul territory should not be the first option, such as on a throw to first from right field.

To be honest, I was rather surprised by this as well. I've always believed in the credo, "Don't call Time when it's not necessary." And I think umpires staggering their movements back to their positions doesn't really increase game delays as long as they hustle when they move. I suppose this falls into the category of "Better be safe than sorry."

Of course, all of your games had to be replayed since the mechanical errors you committed caused the outcome to change.

It amazes me how much we, as umpires, think that people pay attention to what we are doing.

If we went the entire game without signaling safes and outs, I would be willing to bet that 97% of the time the runner would wither walk back into the dugout or go back to the base.

I agree that the NCAA vs ASA mechanic argument is true, but I also have a strong suspicion that Manny does not work enough NCAA ball to have developed NCAA habits. It may be the people in his area are NCAA people and have taught him the NCAA way.

Posts like these remind me why I probably could never be a top softball umpire and contribute to why I'm baseball-only and have been for over 15 years. It does help me appreciate some of the differences, though, since I could be coaching my daughter's team next year.

Looking at the list, I'm most stunned at #1. I would ding a baseball umpire for NOT giving a safe signal on a close interference/no interference situation.

Oh, and #3. The sure sign of a baseball umpire that needs some training (or at least needs to be told about it) is a plate guy who signals foul on a ball straight back to the screen instead of reaching into the ball bag to give another ball to the catcher. Or a base umpire who signals foul on a ball obviously out of play.

Different strokes, and all that.

I wonder if Manny's training was mainly rooted in baseball. Most of his list are baseball umpiring mechanics.

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Actually, don't know why any of these are even considered an issue. There is nothing there that shouldn't have been known and familiar before being assigned to a tournament of this level for ASA.

Obviously, there are some deviations that should NOT earn an umpire a gig if there was a reason for it occurring (i.e., call from foul ground). Again, though, it should be the exception, not the standard.

This stuff is the standard that has been included in schools and clinics for more than a decade. If it is a shock to you, that means you even haven't gone to the clinics or your clinicians are not presenting you with what is expected.

So, you support making a call on something that did not happen, yet you don't want a signal on something that did?

I don't have a problem with no big signal on an obvious foul ball EXCEPT to notify a player who is NOT AWARE of the OBVIOUS foul ball and is still playing the game. Remember, just because it is obvious to you, doesn't mean it is obvious to everyone on the field. And, BTW, the calls and signals are for them, not you.

And when they're needed, they're given. On a clear foul ball back to the screen or a ball clearly out of play, nobody needs an umpire and the signal is superfluous. The base umpire might say, "it's foul" to an advancing runner, but even that's not a requirement.

On a ball that barely misses a runner, a safe signal clearly tells everyone that "I saw the ball and it didn't hit the runner." It's a signal that communicates something useful.

Like I said, different strokes. Doesn't make your way better or my way better, but those guys that work both sports had better know the ways of each unless they want to get marked down. Sitting next to an evaluator, for example, I saw the pen come out when a plate guy said "dead ball" on a HBP in a baseball game last week. Absolutely wrong in baseball, but proper in softball.

Unlike softball, though, I can work essentially the same mechanics in every one of my baseball games. Apparently there's a heackuva schism in softball between the different bodies.

Guilty as charged. I haven't been to an ASA school or clinic (other than routine pre-season training with my association). The vast majority of what I know is through OJT from previous ASA Nationals, Showcases, and other tournaments. And with the exception of maybe two or three games a year, I work two-man in those games.

And as others have pondered, I did start out as a baseball-only umpire, and worked baseball for about 12 years, before moving over to softball. To this day, I still bring those nasty baseball habits onto the skinned moundless field with me (like tracking pitches only with my eyes, not signalling foul on the ball back to the screen, etc.)

So maybe I wasn't cut out to be "assigned to a tournament of this level for ASA." But I can tell you that there wasn't a single umpire from what I saw or heard during post-game critiques of other crews who didn't screw a couple of these things up. Perhaps it's because they all had extensive NCAA experience, or maybe they, like me, had a baseball background. Or maybe they were just human.

Whatever the case, I was not alone in either forgetting, or just being totally unfamiliar with, the "ASA way" that was expected of us in this National. And I posted my observations to help others here who may be in the same boat.

Manny, I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't have been there, though without a national school, IMO, you shouldn't have, but more on a procedural standpoint.

And part of my reason is just what you stated here. These things are common mechanics for ASA. Would you not agree that to reach the top level of ASA FP, the umpire should have the advantage of this knowledge beforehand? If you were a coach, would that not be your expectation of the officiating crew? I can understand umpires just moving into the world of NC play not being 100% up to snuff on some things as different areas and instructors do occasionally insert personal, non-official mechanics, but that should not be an issue at the Gold.

I don't disagree, but the standard is that the umpire calls the game, not just portions of it. Personally, the "foul" call has always been one of reaction and I'd rather have an umpire make a superfluous call than waste time on getting the field reset because someone didn't think it was that obvious.

So if there is no signal, the umpire is inferring "I wasn't watching"? If the umpire saw it, s/he would have called it. Talk about superfluous.

Why is that wrong? Baseball rules (MLB 5.09) clearly state that "the ball becomes dead" when the batter is HBP.

The base was developed by the ASA. NFHS & ISF have the same mechanics as ASA. NCAA has different mechanics, but that is a closed shop and even then that have been some issues among crews, just as there is elsewhere.

In ASA, NFHS & ISF, if the umpires are using the book mechanics, I can walk onto the field with any of those umpires without a pregame and not have a problem. It is the interjection of personal preferences that will cause a crew issues. Don't get me wrong, I've had my issues and arguments with the ASA staff about some of their mechanics, but when working their games, I will do my best to use their mechanics.

When I worked baseball, many of the mechanics were the same except BU starting inside. Then again, if you didn't go to a professional school, your training was mostly local.

I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I know I would have benefited from attending (and I will in the near future). And if it had been a hard-fast prerequisite, I would have made the arrangements beforehand. Suffice it to say that, given other demands in both my work and personal calendars, I didn't have the wherewithal to attend one this year. So I did what I thought was prudent, attending local training with my association UIC, researching materials on ASA's website, and asking questions on this board.

I agree with this as well. And for the most part, I felt all umpires at this Gold were well up to speed for the most part. It was just what I consider a few technicalities that were highlighted by the evaluators that caught me--and perhaps a few others--unaware. I made sure to exercise them the next time I took the field, and offered them here for others to benefit.

As for the coaches, I honestly don't believe any of them knew any better, but I could be wrong. Hell, I had one head coach question whether an opposing pitcher had just committed a Balk, for crying out loud.

Let me preface--I am both a baseball and softball umpire. I went to ASA National School back when I worked that level of ball.

I gave up ASA many years ago for numerous reasons. Too many games in a day when working tournaments, all the nitpicking of umpires by higherups, crummy pay per game...I could keep going on.

I currently work NCAA softball at the Division 2 and 3 levels. I work in an association that has proticals. However, nitpicking is not one of them.

Do I always throw my arms up on a foul ball straight back--no.

Do I sometimes use an unauthorized signal--sure

Do I hustle and work hard on the field and do I know the rules--absolutely

The bottom line is we need to get the plays right. I love mechanics that assist umpires in this goal. I am not a big believer in mechanics for the sake of mechanics. I worked my state's state high school softball tournament this spring and the UIC suggested we don't signal outs on routine fly balls. He said nobody is looking at the umpire anyway.

I liked that one. It made sense to me.

I'm sure if some ASA guy watched me work he would cringe with some of the things I do. Frankly, I have a hard enough time remembering rule differences, when in three consecutive days I work high school baseball, college softball and high school softball. Some of the book mechanics don't even hit my brain.

I didn't say know better, I said expect the officials at the top tournament to be trained and aware of the rules and mechanics beforehand. If I were a coach and someone tells me to give the umpire a break, he is just learning the system at a NC, I would go ballistic. A national at any level or of any organization is not a place to train umpires.

The observation is not wrong, but an umpire makes the signal because it is part of the routine and job. It is good practice and eliminates a question of mechanics when the lines of what is or is not routine or necessary begin to get blurred.

Different philosophies.

In ASA, you will get "always do this, or never do that".

In NCAA, you will be asked "why did you do this, or what were you thinking when you did that".

Actually, our tournament UICs accepted reasonable explanations to any deviations of the norm. They did ask during critiques questions like, "Why did you make the call from there?" They wanted to make sure the umpire knew what was expected, and wanted to understand the umpire's rationale for doing something different.

OK, that is good to hear.

But then, what is up with BU "never" making a call from foul (your #6)?

I am surprised at:
a) first half of #3 :confused:
b) #6 if it is absolute :(
c) #7 especially :eek:
d) #8 - yuk (sorry Mike) ;)

This is standard ASA as the routine. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it that much as the UIC unless it became the standard for all foul balls



Again, nothing new, but it doesn't say NEVER. It should be the exception when necessary to stay out of the play, not as a standard reaction to anything between the line and F4 and/or F9.



Don't know why other than to avoid a double call

This isn't new and was noted in a clarification a couple years ago. And whether you are pro or con on LBR, when all the umpires are rotated, it is an intelligent and efficient mechanic to get the game moving. There is no harm in calling time to get the crew reset.

One of the other reasons given was to prevent having two umpires away from the diamond, leaving one to deal with potential tag-ups or plays on runners being too far off the base.

For example, R1 on third and R2 on first, and there's a popped up bunt on a squeeze attempt that goes toward the third base dugout. BU and U3 both go toward the fence as F2 and F5 converge on the ball. F2 makes a diving catch, and then from her knees throws to F6 covering third base as R1 attempts to return. Might be a tough call for U1 to make from the opposite side of the diamond.

Understand that, though if there is a runner on 3rd and the ball is away from the plate area and there is an umpire on the line, the PU may want to give up that call if there is a possibility of a tag. Then again, it all depends on the area you have to cover in foul territory. Rarely is the minimum of 25' available to the defense, at least, in my travels.

Shouldn't we be using good judgement on this? If F2 makes a diving catch or the ball is into the fence, PU may not be in position to make a credible call. U3 will likely still have a good angle on R1 returning. I can certainly agree with U3 not being too aggressive with a runner responsibility. Also, for example, with two out, foul/catch is the only call.

Thanks for the clarification.

When I was at the GOLD in 2011, we were told at our pre-tournament clinic that it was allowable to go into foul territory to make a call if needed, one of the examples given was a pickoff play at third.

This was a departure from the ASA norm at the time, and did raise some questions from long-time ASA umpires. I was surprised when reading the OP on this one.

As far as umpires at the GOLD knowing the expectations, I was told that three of the 40 umpires at my tournament in 2011 had never worked a three-umpire game in their life. If that is the case, that needs to fall back on the local UIC that recommended these umpires for the tournament.

Andy, that could be part of the problem. It isn't always the UIC who makes the nominations, right Steve? :)

In some cases, it is commissioners, district commissioners, etc. When I did the 16's, I talked to the host state UIC and he had no input on the umpires. Knew who they were, but not necessarily if they were qualified.

Sure is. But, I can only speak about what happens locally - not with any authority, just what I've experienced.

just a FYI, every one of these were brought up and instructed at the 2012 Advanced camp. (but there are some who think 'paying $400 to learn the prescribed mechanic and then get paid to work a dozen or so games to 'learn to button hook' is a waste of time and money)

Like I mentioned to a fellow blue this weekend at a USA-ASA National, 'it was the best $400 I have spent'

I'll go back in couple of years too! In a sense, you 'got' an advance camp in Clearwater as well. :)

#5 is the chute play, and $400 to learn how it is different from NCAA, or pay $20 for the NCAA umpires manual to understand both.

You keep on coming up with real winners. One of these days you might look into some things and actually try to learn WTF you are talking about.

Speaking of #5, y'all talk like it is a mile for U3 to get into this position when it isn't that big a deal. It is a 60' diamond. U3 shouldn't be, but about 100' from 1B and moving closer the second s/he realizes the ball isn't hit to F5.

Based on what I would consider reasonable cause to go out, not just out on anything not on the dirt, the odds of a play @ 1B with U1 in the OF should be quite rare and should there be one, U3 will have a better angle than the PU on a throw coming from that part of the field.

IOW, big freaking deal! Any umpire who cannot cover that distance in a reasonable time with ordinary effort probably needs to start working on his/her golf game.

What is "the chute play"?:o

Aw Chute! Now I havta get mah slow butt all the way acrawss tha dimond.

Love that Texas drawl :)

#5

So, this must be a chute post...:p

That'd be the "aw, shucks", I fergot I gotta attend an advanced camp post.

#5 as described is nicknamed such for the infamous ASA "chute" play. That is why they call U3 the "rabbit". When you see race horses or race dogs at the track, rodeo, iditarod, whatever, the animals come firing outa their chutes at the starting gate and move like bat outa hell.

In ASA, U3 has to "shoot" outa the chute to cover the BR on said #5 chute play when U1 chases with no runners on. In NCAA, PU takes that BR because PU is already trailing. This play is a 3-man mechanics play, something apparently taught at so called advance camp.

What's all this advance camp nonsense?

This is BASIC 3-man in ASA. One of perhaps 5 sentences I would give a newbie thrust into 3-man with no notice for the very first time.

In non-NCAA softball, U3 has to cover the BR when U1 chases with no runners on.

He asked, I answered.

It has been asked more than once. No one else wanted to answer. That is nonsense.

What about LL?

It is a pretty basic concept, actually. Hard to understand why some might have issues grasping it. If/when U1 goes out, and you revert to two umpire mechanics, which remaining umpire is now the base umpire?

As a plate umpire in that system, I would read if my U3 got a bad jump, or appeared unlikely to get in a good calling position; I might communicate a deviation on that play;).

OK, yes, you answered. But not accurately. You told him this was an advanced mechanic that you could only learn in schools. I'm aware of your need to tie every post, somehow, to a way to denigrate ASA... but I hadn't seen you flat out lie before.

This (the "chute") is absolutely not an advanced mechanic. In fact, it's one of the very first things you need to learn, right after "where to start" depending on where runners are.

Its just a name given to a play for 3-man mechanics, it was asked and explained why it is endearingly named as such and the difference between ASA and NCAA. Where did you learn it and why didn't you just answer it simply when asked?

Over moderating and over officiating are similar failures. If you can't resist a knee jerk white knuckle reaction, you can take it off-line. Or, you coulda simply answered the question better yourself and saved your aggravation.

A) What exactly do you think I moderated?
B) Every post by a "moderator" is not moderating - we are officials too.
C) I don't feel aggravated ... and promise I was never white-knuckled over anything. I simply disagreed with your intimation that this was some sort of hi-tech super-umpiring technique only learned by spending your money. Disagreement is not moderation. It's just disagreement. Moderators can disagree with someone, and/or call them out when they flat out lie, just like anyone else.

You lied. Me saying so is not "over moderation". And it didn't need to be taken off-line.

I hope that is the end of this particular "conversation". :rolleyes: :o

3-man is advanced AFAIK from when I called ASA. I never learned any 3-man at any ASA rules or mechanics clinic, and at ASA national school, it was touched on briefly without much fanfare or thought. Almost all 3-man and variations of it from ASA vs NCAA, I learned in approved NCAA camps, which I consider "advanced".

I didn't know it was even called the chute play till worked one of my first college fall ball games with a tried and true golden indicator ASA veteran. He explained the origin of the names, the chute, the rabbit. And, funny, he explained, "after 8 years of loyalty and working hard in the ASA, I realized I really know nothing". He's just breaking into non-conference D1 ball now.

It is a term I have never heard in over 25 years of working ASA/ISF 3-umpire mechanics, so maybe that is why people are asking.

Regardless of what anyone or organization wants to claim, U3 has the best look at a possible play @ 1B. Well, I should say a competent U3 as I know of a few that would just walk toward the SS assuming there will not be a play @ 1.

I guess it has been handed down from the generations, and I am fortunate or unfortunate enuff to be blessed with that knowledge. It was conveyed to me by an established ASA vet on a college field and game, not an advanced ASA camp, so go figure. Perhaps we are now both liars according to the language patrol and factoid hall monitors who goes without saying must have attended every advanced camp.

But whether 3U or PU has a better look at 1B is debatable. Its the one that has the better hustle to get to position, angle and distance to make that call to consider. In 3-man, an NCAA PU must be able to get there to make that call in angle and distance. ASA seems to prefer age and experience behind the plate not mobility, and speed and youth at the rabbit (3U). I call that, the seniority factor.

There may be no initial play at 1B, but there is a high likelihood of a throwback after rounding. I like the PU distance and angle on the throwback. I like U3 waiting at 2B ahead of the play. I prefer the PU for those reasons, and U3 can continue towards the SS onwards to 2B ahead of the play.

I never heard the term, but it is the exact mechanic I use when being the rabbit.

I will take a competent U3 coming across every time. But what would I know, I've never worked a DI game, so I must be an idiot. I've just been trained by MButler, HPollard, BPeterson, WSparks, NDavis, DEpperson, etc. And did I happen to mention TMason? Yeah, you're the lucky one.

See ya, meat.

A competent U3 has to read off of a competent U1. If U1 hesitates, which happens often, you better read U3 or hustle and trail all the way up if there's gonna be a hole. Better to have a complete competent crew than rely on one guy to fill that hole.

Who cares who trained you.

I don't see the problem. Let's break it down.

No runners on base.
B hits fly ball to RF.
U3 sprints inside towards 2B.
U1 hesitates, then goes out. Now we are 2-man.
U3 is already at least half way towards 2B, and then diverts towards 1B.
F9 would have the only potential non-TWP at 1B (assuming she was playing deep) and couldn't come in for a short pop fly to RF, picks up ball and tries to get BR at 1B.
U3 anticipates the play and gets into calling position, or to follow BR towards 2B.

What is the difficulty with this?:confused:

Since you asked, and FWIW, the LL Field Mechanics Manual for the 60' diamond calls for U3 to go into the working area, but be responsible for the BR touching first, any play back to first on the BR, and any plays on the BR at second and third.

The problem is, the "working area" is defined as a rectangular area behind the pitcher's mound/circle. The manual doesn't require U3 to go all the way to get to that 10'-12' point as taught in ASA. It's going to be tough for U3 to make a call from this working area on a throwback to first base should the BR turn wide.

Oh, the manual also says the PU should stay in foul territory and drift toward third base. It doesn't have the PU trailing the BR to first should U1 chase a trouble ball. Go figure...

Slow down there partner. Who cares? I care.

I don't know how many of us (in addition to Irish) here on the Forum go back to the days of Tom Mason, but I do. Having had the opportunity early in my career to attend several of Mason's regional clinics; Tom's simplistic, direct, no nonsense style of presentation allowed me to start understanding the rules and how to apply them as opposed to just memorizing them. There's 'stuff' from Tom's clinics in the 70's that I still remember and utilize today. I guess it can be said that Tom Mason pretty much created the model for umpire clinics and schools.

Henry Pollard, only met (and umpired for) Henry once. To this day the best UIC I ever worked for. Aside from his knowledge and understanding of how the game should be umpired, he was the first guy (beyond my local area) who recognized something in my umpiring ability. Having Henry take me aside and explain to me the umpiring 'road map' gave me the confidence to know that by continuing to work hard at my game I had (IHO) the ability to become a real good umpire.

Merle Butler, I have in my files copies of many of Merle's articles on umpiring and still refer to them at the start of each season. Excellent teacher and writer.....much like EA.
While I regret that I've only attended one ASA Umpire School, the one I did attend (we're talking the early days here) had in addition to Butler who was NUIC, on the staff Bill Humphries and Bernie Prafato.
Again, much like I learned from Mason and Pollard, today I still hear in my head umpiring concepts that these guys taught and talked about at the school.

Where am I going with all this? Whatever kind of umpire I am today, whatever level I'm able to umpire at today, whatever ability I have today to understand the nuances of rules and mechanics and execute them on the field, I owe a huge part of that to three guys you're dismissing with your "who cares who trained you" comment.

AFAIC, when you're talking Mason, Pollard, and Butler; you're talking umpire royalty.

Very nice....all very respected names in the history of softball umpiring....and all with their roots, if not most of their careers in ASA.

It seems to me that too many NCAA umpires have forgotten where they came from and where they learned to umpire.....

Its good that you care.

I still don't care.

Wishful thinking... :rolleyes:

It would be appreciated if you tried to act a little less like a jerk around here.

Thank you.

Use the mechanics for the alphabet you are working. Thanks for the post and most of the responses to this thread. I think that it is important for all of us to respect the care and attention we put into this avocation. Respect others and adjust.

Thread has outlived it's usefulness.