U3 Button-Hook
 

Sorry if this post sounds a little arcane, but I'm having trouble visualizing what ASA wants from U3 under three-man when it says U3 should button-hook inside the diamond on a base hit to the outfield. I went through some three-man training yesterday in prep for a National, and I was screwing things up left and right. :o

How is that button-hook executed? Does U3 go down foul territory, pivot 90 degrees into the infield in front of third base, and then button-hook to watch a runner touch third? Or does U3 go straight to the button-hook position through fair territory, similar to how U1 executes it?

I tried the latter, but I quickly realized that I could easily get into the runner's path as she was approaching third. So then I tried to wait to let the runner pass, and by then I felt I could get into trouble if there was a throw to third should the runner take too wide a turn.

Then I tried by going down foul territory, but that also seemed to take too much time, and I still felt I might get into the runner's path as she rounded the base.

The only time I really felt comfortable was when there were runners at first and third, and I didn't have a runner heading for the base. I would still go down foul territory and then come in. But I'm still unsure that's the "ASA School Solution" on how to execute.

Comments?

Button hooking from either the foul side, or 'straight' to inside are exceptable depending on where the ball is hit, and how the runner from 2nd is approaching. Both are taught at advance camps (ASA).

(Note to self: Attend an advance camp...)

Thanks much.

$400 to learn how to button hook just to watch a runner touch?

What advantage does button hooking provide when there is no play at the base? Stay outside and outa the way to watch the base touched.

Because that is the prescribed mechanic. When in Rome theory at work here

That's what I did the first time a runner approached third on a clean base hit. And my association UIC who was providing the training said ASA wants us to button-hook on those. I checked the Umpire Manual, and sure enough that's what it instructs.

The downfall of an empire.

Never mind the best place to make a call at third is from the outside, right? :D

Sometimes, other times no. It depends.

On the other hand, where is the best place to be when there is NO call?

maybe so, maybe not. but if one chooses not to use the prescribed mechanics for what ever association (GB) they are working for, because they 'think it is ridiculous', does that umpire also pick and choose what rule set or individual rules they will enforce as well? Mechanics are put in place for a reason and if one umpire on the crew chooses to not at the very least, try to adhere to the mechanics, that brings the whole crew down as that umpire's partners now how to worry about where you are (or not) on the field, instead of worrying about their own positioning.

Oh, I am not suggesting he should not follow orders. That is up to the individual receiving the orders, and the one giving the orders. We can always walk away from what doesn't make sense, or not depending on where one wants to be.

I am suggesting we can be thinking umpires and consider better mechanics. Most that do have moved on. In 3-man, and no chase, hooking only serves to setup your calling position. It doesn't affect rotation.

$400 is alot of games to learn NOT to think, be stuck in that mode, then having unlearn it later.

Let the play take you to your position, sometimes in, sometimes foul, and I also agree sometimes outside. Do not be a ROBOT, know the game and get to where you have the best angle for your calls without being in the way of the playing action. 3 man mechanics are great, do not be overwhelmed by everyone telling you that there is a perfect position all of the time. Sorry for the long post and I hope that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I did not do well in TIME OUT.

I guess the same can be said about going to one of the numerous 'NCAA assigner' camps When said assigners know full and well that 75% of the particiaptes well never sniff the close shop. ;)

Sorry, you and I must have posted at the same time. Good Post.

I can't disagree about those camps.

One that ran the camps even admitted lamenting about the "camp whores", guys that come back year after year, not improving, hoping only to get games for time and money spent at the camp.

When it comes to those we shake our heads at, they are everywhere, not just at the bottom.

If executed properly, no more or no less an advantage than staying outside....either one works just fine.

But it's the mechanic & coverage that ASA uses in their three-umpire system to cover the five situations (runner(s) on/base hit to OF) and their mechanic requires 3B to button hook inside the diamond.

The OP is about the poster going to an ASA Nat, working on his 3-man in preparation, and realizing that his execution on that particular coverage is not where he feels needs it to be and wants to improve on it. He obviously understands the importance placed on; and the expectation of proper mechanics by his tournament UIC and crew mates at the Nat.

Now the bolded part.."button hook just to watch a runner touch."
Depending how the play develops in any of the five runner configurations that has 3B button hooking inside the diamond, he will always have other responsibilities. "There's always a job to do", no matter which sanctioning body's mechanics are being used. That's just good umpiring.

So he will do as he's told, or else he won't work, but he had to come here to ask how to do it when it could a been explained right on the spot.

$400 to be taught how to do it is BS.

if that was the only expect of the game taught, you might have a simple point :D

Oh, I can only imagine.:rolleyes:

If you've never been, I'm sure that attending one would help your game.

However, relative to the awkwardness you're experiencing with the button hook at 3B....I think it's like a lot of 3-man coverage mechanics (any org's.); we simply don't get the opportunity to work 3-man often enough to be as sharp and precise in our movements as we are in the two-man system.

Over the last four years, with the the four sanctions that I work, about 10% of my FP games (10/12) every season have been in the three-umpire system. However, I've yet to have the opportunity to work any ASA three-man. As such I'm in no position to offer any suggestions as to how do it properly.....ASA wise. There are plenty of good ASA guys here on the board that can though, plus continue to work with your local UIC.

Good luck at your National

You might be surprised who attended this year's camp as a guest instructor and consultant. :cool:

Amuse me. Surprise me. Tickle me silly.

Wow, you sure do make some wild-ass assumptions about what I will and won't do. Do you even know me?

I asked what I thought was a simple question: How does U3 execute the button-hook as required by ASA mechanics? I got the answer. What I'm going to do or not do, whether I'm a robot or a thinking umpire, or how I spend $400 adds nothing to the discussion.

You get a 'note' from her about 9 or so times a year. :rolleyes:

I am not assuming about YOU, but I am assuming what will happen if you don't do as you are told at an ASA event, you will be sent home. So either you will do as told and work, or you won't and you won't work.

You suggested if you spend the $400 for the advanced FP camp, you will be shown correctly how to button hook in 3-man. It was explained right here and you got it for free. What's missing?

DA?

Common, tell me, don't play me like that. :p

He did.

Tells me so much. :rolleyes:

10 live real Tournament games all in the 3 man system while being critiqued by instructors like Kevin Ryan, Larry Montgomery, Riz, and several other outstanding ASA umpires.
Throw in all the food you could eat, video of said games, great camaraderie and hospitality to boot.

Makes for an informitive and extremly fun time!

To each is own I guess but I'm glad I did it as it would have took years to get that kind of hands on instruction and game action in the 3-man system....;)

You paid for that vs getting paid, right?

:rolleyes:Funny, that's how it is a my straight job, too.:rolleyes:

Or find a better boss and job. Not everyone can, but we all wish we could.

Luckily we are independent contractors, and free will wins.

I leave it to the peanut gallery to guess which member of this conversation has never attended an upper level clinic.

Schedulers are independent as well, free to schedule those who will perform as they are asked, as opposed to simply making stuff as they go and running around where they want. I grant that the umpire population is sometimes not so great that this sort of umpire never works at all ... but those who work at their craft, strive to get better, and continue to learn will get more (and better) games in the long run.

I agree with you in theory...advanced umpires should be allowed to use advanced mechanics that are potentially better for the game and level they are calling.

Where this falls apart is, who or how is it determined which umpires are advanced? This is especially true when you have a collection of umpires from across a wide area.

Case in point..ASA 18Gold National a few years back. 40 umpires from all regions of the country. I posed the question to the UIC...why can't we (advanced umpires) use the advanced mechanics at this level?

The response I got back was...How do you know all of the umpires here are "advanced" umpires? We have three umpires here who have told me (UIC) that they have NEVER worked a three umpire game. Granted that should fall back on those that sent them to this tournament knowing that the majority of the tournament was going to be in the three umpire system, but the fact remains that had two experienced and advanced umpires been working with one of these three and tried to use the advanced mechanics, it would have screwed things up even more than they already were.

I don't necessarily like the ASA position of one set of basic mechanics for the entire umpire population, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

Andy, we can all agree that advanced mechanics are not for everyone. If it was, it would no longer be advanced mechanics, it would just be normal, as in for the masses, which it is not. The ASA fulfills its purpose.

For some, an ASA FP camp is as advanced as it might get, and I think there is a place for that. For others, it might be Steve Arnold's Next Level camp. Whatever fits, I say use it, but any level deserves questioning and challenge to keep it on its toes.

One thing that gets me how tolerant college umpires were to my ASA mechanics but the sheer intolerance of the nazi ASA and its devout gestapo attack cabal.

The other side might be greener, but it isn't the grass.

Do you button-hook @ 1B? Why would it be different @ 3B?

My opinion:

It seems your concern is the runner coming from 2B while you are on 3rd. Remember, depending upon the situation, you may also have F5 & F6 in the area.

I would not set 18-21 feet behind the base, but closer to 10-12', if that. Assume you are not going out. if the ball is to center or right, take your time, let the runner pass and come inside.

If to left, make sure there will not be a quick throw to 3B. If it is on the line, it isn't too hard to take a couple steps fair out of the line of the throw. If away from the line, stay foul and get an angle on the play. If there is no play, take an outside route to avoid the runner. Look out for the coach and F5 returning to cover 3B. Depending on your UIC, you may get asked why you went that way. Just tell them why and you should be fine. Don't think you would get gigged on it as long as you get inside without incident.

When the ball is to right, don't come in too deep, stay near the line. This is where Henry and I had a nice "discussion" in Plant City because coming inside where an umpire would normally button-hook can place the umpire in the path of the throw, not a good place to be. He did not disagree with me, but the mechanic was the mechanic.

AFA staying outside, who is covering 1B & 2B, if you think there will a play @ 3B, but U1 decides to go?

Would U1 chase on a clean base hit?

Even if U1 goes out to chase on a ground ball in error, it reverts to 2-man, and U3 has to go inside to take BR on the ASA chute play, PU takes runner into 3b, just as in 2-man.

OP is asking about NO CHASE.

No, it said a base hit. Problem is what you may think is a clean base hit, U1 may not. I've seen people go out on a line drive that didn't get above the infielders' shoulders.

And you are not going to get a decent look at 2B or 3B from the outside. But I'm sure some people believe it is "good enough". I don't.

Your post is very nice : ) tell me what is the diference in your post and my post ? Your wording is more articulate. mine is more WORKING MAN !!

Let the play take you to your position, sometimes in, sometimes foul, and I also agree sometimes outside. Do not be a ROBOT, know the game and get to where you have the best angle for your calls without being in the way of the playing action. 3 man mechanics are great, do not be overwhelmed by everyone telling you that there is a perfect position all of the time. Sorry for the long post and I hope that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I did not do well in TIME OUT.

Man, you are ASA THICK. "CLEAN BASE HIT" and NO CHASE, reread this thread. I had even quoted it for you.

and, if it reverts to 2-man on any U1 chase for whatever reason, good or bad, its the chute play. No way for U3 to cover BR from the outside. U3 has to cut across the diamond. Why would U3 be watching 3b on the chute play? That's PU.

What is your point?

so back to the OP, in 'your closed shop world' , what is the best way for U3 to 'come inside' (as it would be the prescribed mechanic in both worlds esp if U1 went out) using the outside/in theory (or button hook)?

I'm not closed shop. I have mechanics I see as better or worse. NCAA has some kooky mechanics too.

To me, button hooking when unnecessary is piss poor overworking, period. Its do nothing for nothing.

I'll let mike respond and let you change the subject later.

its not a question of necessary or not. we are talking the prescribed mechanic (which is the question from the OP). be it ASA or your 'chute' play. So with a runner on 2nd advancing to 3rd, in either 'world', what is the preferred way to come inside and button hook?

The key will be whether you learned anything from the experience.

You're making the ridiculous assumption that I would spend $400 to go to an advanced camp for the sole purpose of learning how to button hook in 3-man.

Mechanics manuals are a set of compromises agreed upon by those who write and edit the manuals. Not all people seated around the table will agree upon each mechanic. As long as those who are evaluating stick with the manual and the philosophies behind the mechanics, umpires should be in good shape. A problem arises when UICs/evaluators/clinicians start to put their own unapproved twist on things based on their own preferences. I have spoken with countless umpires who return from clinics (primarily ASA or NCAA) with mechanics or techniques that not only aren't in the manual, but often contradict those that are.

As we have seen in NCAA over the last ten years or so, mechanics can become less rigid once a higher percentage of umpires are on the same page. In years past, manuals had a tendency to turn umpires into "spot umpires." Umpires would jump to a position like well-trained robots without giving thought as to why they would go there. The idea of pausing, reading the play and then reacting to the play was virtually non-existent. Though things have improved, there is certainly a long way to go. Still today, umpires will see a ball hit toward the outfield and start coming inside the diamond rather than reading the play and letting the ball take them to the play.

An example of an unnecessary button-hook (leaving alone rimming with no runners on base) is on fly balls to the outfield. Umpires drop their head, run inside and prepare to take the runner to the next base if the runner tags up. Here's the question I ask the umpires when I think they came inside needlessly: "What are the elements you are looking for on a tag-up situation?" The answer is always, "The runner." When I ask them, "What else?" they almost always say, "The base." Rarely does the umpire say, "The ball." Now, the umpire was always able to see the runner. The umpire was always able to see the base. The umpire could have seen the ball by opening up. What these overly-button-hooking umpires don't often see is the ball. How can you rule on a tag-up appeal if you don't see the ball? If you can't button-hook inside the diamond in time to see the ball as it arrives near the outfield, don't come inside. Just open up, face the ball and glance at the runners.

Hmmm. I rarely have any problems button-hooking in on the tag-ups, and watching all the elements. But I do agree, for example, that as U1 and a runner at first only, it would be much easier to see the tag-up of R1 on a fly ball in left-center that U3 chases, if I stayed out and opened up.

The problem then, for some of us older types, is getting into position to watch the tag play at second should R1 advance. You're at a disadvantage starting from essentially foul territory.

I make no assumptions, you wrote it. Perhaps in jest. Like I said, I am making NO assumptions.

But no, I don't think you would pay that much to learn just how to button hook. I sense you might not comprehend why you MUST button hook, since you didn't at first and seem natural not to do so, but was later corrected by your training UIC to do so regardless on a clean base hit. It would make more sense to spend money to learn if to button hook, or why and when it makes sense to do it.

Here is what I can assure you. If you pay $400 to goto that advanced camp, they will tell you you must button hook on a clean base it to the outfield, period and without exception. Inside outside theory, period.

I would recommend just taking a step or two back and going deeper. This would basically be a mirror image as if you had come inside. The angle might even be better. Flash back to the runner right before the ball is going to reach the outfielder. If she's on the base at that time, you're all set. If she's off and doesn't go back, you know that there may be a legitimate appeal.

I button hooked for years and have moved away from it more and more and have outright eliminated it in the 3 umpire games I do.

Manny, a WCWS extols the virtue of ball status and is ASA. I'll let you guess which one or maybe all of them. Button hooking requires you purposefully lose ball status only to regain it again prior to repositioning.

If you (U3) are rotated and U1 chases caught, you are already at 2b. Watch tagup and wait for runner to come to you, be ahead of the runner. If dropped, stay at 2b for throw into 2b, or take several steps towards 1b ending up in the rotated B position outside to call a close one at 1b. The placement of the fly will likely hint at where the throw will go. PRR, pause, read and react.

If you (U1) don't chase, take a couple of steps foul or simply open up to watch tagup at 1st.or dropped ball and the ensuing scramble. Your angle will be fine in foul to see it all. Be aware of first base coach.

If U3 chases, unless you (U1) will end up right in a throwing lane for a play at 2b, watch tag while opened up, then parallel runner into 2b while rimming outside. If you feel you will be squeezed, you can always default to pivoting inside (button hooking) since you already know how, but you will need to know ball status and prepitch your secondary calling position at 2b to determine you going inside.

PU comes inside the diamond and has a good look at the throwback to help at 1b if there is one since he will likely be trailing BR anyways if its close.

This is all PPP, pre pitch planning. Thinking umpires. No longer are we told X marks the spot where you must go.

You working 3-man which NCAA dominates. Be ahead of the runners if possible, let them come to you, and stay outa the way by button hooking as little as possible, unless you must when working ASA.

Consider that when working outside, you have far less worry about crossing running lanes to make you uncomfortable like you felt, and can concentrate more on throwing lanes, and all the while maintaining ball status to help you make those decisions.

Manny, consider that all this may be decent advice in a future NCAA game.

But, considering I understand you are currently boning up on ASA 3-man for the ASA 18 Gold, ignore every part of it relative to your current need. Doing someone else's mechanics in a National is as disrespectful as wearing someone else's uniform. No matter what you believe is a "better" mechanic, or use all the catch phrases spoken by others.

"Unless you must when working ASA"

I have never been, seen, heard or taken part in teaching anyone to go a spot. I don't see it anywhere in the ASA or ISF manual. Parameters, yes; Specific spot, no.

However, recently ASA have had NUS members lock on the DVD and like the mechanics at the schools and clinics, the DVDs were meant to be an aid, not the bible. Those folks are not helpful to anyone, the umpire or the UIC who has to work with that umpire.
Again, don't know where you get this as I have never heard the suggestion of an umpire not watching the ball. Just because he is coming inside doesn't mean their head cannot turn to watch the ball.

IMO, staying outside provides the umpire with no better a look, just a bit less demanding. Then again, an umpire inside is in a better position to move to any number of position to make a call at any base necessary. AFA a tag up, yeah, I'm watching the ball and like being outside opening up to glance at the runner on the contact.

If the ball is on the ground, I don't care where the ball is until a fielder retrieves and returns it to the infield. That leaves me free to stay with the runners and defenders in the area with minimal effort.

No it doesn't.

How does that solve Manny's original concern involving the runner approaching 3B?

And who is covering the plate for the runner scoring from 2B? If there is a ball to the OF, the PU stays home. And if you ever received proper training, there never was. But then again, you are not interested in anything that doesn't fit your agenda.

If doing it right, and I assume we are talking about umpires who supposedly know what they are doing, an umpire should never worry about crossing a runner's path. If you do, you need to either put in a little more hustle in your giddy-up or just wait for the runner to pass and step in behind. It is not that big a deal.

And if you are inside, there is no additional concern about "throwing lanes", yet still have the ball, base, runners & defenders in front of you, and can adjust position and angles for any unanticipated plays with minimal effort.

We were paid for the games we worked in the tournament. This was the 2012 Slow Pitch advanced camp in Lincoln, Nebraska. ;)

Unfortunately, with some UIC's, the difference between making Sunday or going home Saturday night could be whether or not these "spots" were adhered to, rather than did the umpire use all of the tools available in his tool bag to be the best umpire he can be for any given game.

And that is sad, but apparently, I've never run into any of them. Well, I take that back. I've run into some, but not as an umpire. And when I would send an umpire to work for that type of UIC, I would warn them ahead of time how to deal with them.

Guess I must have been lucky in my assignments, clinics and schools. But there is nothing in the manual nor clinic guide telling an umpire to go to a spot and make the call.

College has many advanced camps