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CecilOne Wed Jul 03, 2013 03:11pm
rule cite - IFR
 
Probably just me being confused, but where in the ASA book is the rule that says the batter is out for an infield fly. :confused:

Crabby_Bob Wed Jul 03, 2013 03:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 899233)
Probably just me being confused, but where in the ASA book is the rule that says the batter is out for an infield fly. :confused:
It doesn't. ASA 8.2.I says the batter-runner is out when an infield fly is declared.

nopachunts Wed Jul 03, 2013 04:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob (Post 899234)
It doesn't. ASA 8.2.I says the batter-runner is out when an infield fly is declared.
What year rulebook are you referencing?

Don't have my 2013 rulebook with me but the 2012 rule book states:

Section 2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.
I. When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter- runner before reaching first base.

Bolding mine. Hope they corrected it for 2013.

CecilOne Wed Jul 03, 2013 04:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob (Post 899234)
It doesn't. ASA 8.2.I says the batter-runner is out when an infield fly is declared.
Yes, I was being generic instead of rule specific.

CecilOne Wed Jul 03, 2013 04:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nopachunts (Post 899235)
What year rulebook are you referencing?

Don't have my 2013 rulebook with me but the 2012 rule book states:

Section 2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.
I. When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter- runner before reaching first base.

Bolding mine. Hope they corrected it for 2013.
The 2013 is the same and that is part of my question.

Crabby_Bob Wed Jul 03, 2013 04:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 899237)
The 2013 is the same and that is part of my question.
Mea Culpa. I picked up the 2010 book. There is a period immediately after "When an infield fly is declared". Same for 2011. Changed in 2012.

Didn't we go round and round about this before, somewhere?

CecilOne Wed Jul 03, 2013 04:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob (Post 899238)
Mea Culpa. I picked up the 2010 book. There is a period immediately after "When an infield fly is declared". Same for 2011. Changed in 2012.

Didn't we go round and round about this before, somewhere?
Yes, but I could not find it, "infield" and IFR are too common in our forum.

nopachunts Wed Jul 03, 2013 05:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nopachunts (Post 899235)
ASA 2012/2013 Rulebook 8.2.I states:

Section 2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.
I. When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter- runner before reaching first base.

Bolding mine. Hope they corrected it for 2013.
@IrishMafia,
Shouldn't the "and" be "or"? Has this been corrected in an interpretation or correction?

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jul 03, 2013 06:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nopachunts (Post 899240)
@IrishMafia,
Shouldn't the "and" be "or"? Has this been corrected in an interpretation or correction?
No. They (ASA) changed the rule for 2012 and apparently, still hasn't caught it yet.

The rule should read (as it did in 2011):

I. When an infield fly is declared. If the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base, the ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked.

nopachunts Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 899244)
No. They (ASA) changed the rule for 2012 and apparently, still hasn't caught it yet.

The rule should read (as it did in 2011):

I. When an infield fly is declared. If the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base, the ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked.
Thank you

CecilOne Thu Jul 04, 2013 06:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 899244)

I. When an infield fly is declared. If the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base, the ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked.
How does the "infield fly is invoked" apply if the BR is already out from being hit?

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 04, 2013 08:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 899259)
How does the "infield fly is invoked" apply if the BR is already out from being hit?
The BR isn't out for being hit, they are out because you invoked the IF. The result of the now non-participant is the ball is dead and not runners may advance.

CecilOne Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 899260)
The BR isn't out for being hit, they are out because you invoked the IF. The result of the now non-participant is the ball is dead and not runners may advance.
So, what it is really saying is the invoking of the IFR still applies, but now the ball is dead.

Why does it specify the BR, as opposed to any runner off base being hit by an uncaught infield fly? (Before passing a fielder of course).
If it is not just the BR that would cause a dead ball, why mention it at all, any batted ball hitting a runner or batter-runner is dead, isn't it?

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 04, 2013 09:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 899280)
So, what it is really saying is the invoking of the IFR still applies, but now the ball is dead.

Why does it specify the BR, as opposed to any runner off base being hit by an uncaught infield fly? (Before passing a fielder of course).
If it is not just the BR that would cause a dead ball, why mention it at all, any batted ball hitting a runner or batter-runner is dead, isn't it?
The result would be the same if it were the runner, except you would then have a 2nd out. This was added in 2002, so I wasn't in the room for this one :) I can only assume (yeah, I know) that there were umpires confused between the difference of the IF and BR hit by batted ball and was trying to call two outs on a single player or, would ignore the IF and rule only on the hit BR.

chapmaja Thu Jul 04, 2013 09:18pm
Possibility
 
How would this situation play out with the IFR rule that is being discussed?

R1 on 2b, R2 on 1b. 0 out. R1 and R2 are stealing on the pitch and B3 hits a pop fly on the infield. The plate umpire invokes the IFR and F3 lets the ball drop, which rolls and hits B3 in fair territory. In this case B3 is out on the IFR. Even though R1 and R2 had advanced and had attained the next base when B3 was contacted by the ball, would R1 and R2 be sent back to 2b and 1b? The interference rule would allow them to stay at the base attained at the time of the interference which would be the ones they were stealing on the play 3b and 2b.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 05, 2013 06:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 899296)
How would this situation play out with the IFR rule that is being discussed?

R1 on 2b, R2 on 1b. 0 out. R1 and R2 are stealing on the pitch and B3 hits a pop fly on the infield. The plate umpire invokes the IFR and F3 lets the ball drop, which rolls and hits B3 in fair territory. In this case B3 is out on the IFR. Even though R1 and R2 had advanced and had attained the next base when B3 was contacted by the ball, would R1 and R2 be sent back to 2b and 1b? The interference rule would allow them to stay at the base attained at the time of the interference which would be the ones they were stealing on the play 3b and 2b.
According to the rule, it is just a dead ball. Runners stay where they were when the ball became dead.

I don't see the need for the additional portion of the rule, but apparently something happened on the field in 2000 or 2001 which precipitated it.

AFAIC, this shouldn't be any different from any other non-participant being hit with a batted ball. Of course, you may always have an issue of the BR not hearing the call or an umpire not making the call in a timely fashion

CecilOne Fri Jul 05, 2013 07:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 899303)
Of course, you may always have an issue of the BR not hearing the call or an umpire not making the call in a timely fashion
Yeah, a ball that hits the BR would not give the ump much time to make a call.

OK, now, the reason I started looking for this, timing of the out.

Pardon me if you think I am overthinking or TW'ing.

Without any dead ball out of the BR as above, is the player who hit the IF out:
1 - when the ball is struck, even though the rule is in the BR section
2 - when the IFR is declared (verbal)
3 - when the ball lands or is touched
4 - during the post-game ;) :D

I have always thought it's number 1, as there is no escape from the out, but now I think I recall a ruling somewhere that says number 3, which might mean the things like:
a - runner struck dead ball overrides
b - the force is on until the ball hits the ground if untouched
c - who knows

ASA first, please.

chapmaja Fri Jul 05, 2013 08:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 899306)
Yeah, a ball that hits the BR would not give the ump much time to make a call.

OK, now, the reason I started looking for this, timing of the out.

Pardon me if you think I am overthinking or TW'ing.

Without any dead ball out of the BR as above, is the player who hit the IF out:
1 - when the ball is struck, even though the rule is in the BR section
2 - when the IFR is declared (verbal)
3 - when the ball lands or is touched
4 - during the post-game ;) :D

I have always thought it's number 1, as there is no escape from the out, but now I think I recall a ruling somewhere that says number 3, which might mean the things like:
a - runner struck dead ball overrides
b - the force is on until the ball hits the ground if untouched
c - who knows

ASA first, please.
I would say it is #3. The reason is on balls close to the line we are instructed to call "Infield fly if fair." If the ball lands untouched and rolls into foul territory and is then touched or lands foul it is simply a foul ball it is simply a foul ball. The ball doesn't become fair until it is touched over fair territory, touches the the ground over fair territory, or touches the ground in fair territory beyond first or third base.

Andy Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:24pm
Quote:

Pardon me if you think I am overthinking or TW'ing.
You are, but that's OK.....:)

The IF rule goes into effect when the status (fair/foul) of the ball is determined. Since there cannot be an infield fly on a foul ball, the effect of the rule does not become "official" until the ball is determined to be a fair ball.

IRISHMAFIA Sat Jul 06, 2013 07:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 899306)
Yeah, a ball that hits the BR would not give the ump much time to make a call.

OK, now, the reason I started looking for this, timing of the out.

Pardon me if you think I am overthinking or TW'ing.

Without any dead ball out of the BR as above, is the player who hit the IF out:
1 - when the ball is struck, even though the rule is in the BR section
2 - when the IFR is declared (verbal)
3 - when the ball lands or is touched
4 - during the post-game ;) :D

I have always thought it's number 1, as there is no escape from the out, but now I think I recall a ruling somewhere that says number 3, which might mean the things like:
a - runner struck dead ball overrides
b - the force is on until the ball hits the ground if untouched
c - who knows

ASA first, please.
How about....

The IF is what it is the moment the umpire deems it so. The effect of the rule is when it is determined to be fair, so I would say you have 1 & 3, it is never "overridden" by anything, striking a runner subsequent action and there is never a force.

BTW, striking the ball is what places it in the BR section since that action is what make the B a BR

CecilOne Wed Jul 17, 2013 09:04pm
How about a runner is struck by the batted ball before it lands?


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