Trivia
 

Bottom of the 7th, Visitors up by 1. Bases loaded, 2 outs, full count. R2 and R3 are off on the pitch, R1 from third taking a regular lead. The ball is hit to shallow left who has a cannon arm. F7 fires home.

R2 and R1 arrive near the plate almost simultaneously, R2 sprinting, R1 jogging, unaware the ball is coming. R2 slides and touches plate just before F2 catches the ball and steps on the plate, which happens just before R1 touches the plate. As R2 is sliding, her head is behind R1's feet.

Ruling? Who wins, if anyone?

I have R2 out for passing R1. Third out, end of inning/game, visitors win by one.

isn't that considered passing a preceding runner before the preceding runner is put out? R2 is out. ball game.

What is the definition of passing?

Rules supplement 39, runner must pass the entire body of the preceding runner to be called out.

I realize the emphasis of supplement 39, but the trailing runner touched the plate before the lead runner. If the defense appeals that this is the case, what is going to be your call as to whether R2 passed R1 or not? if you say that R2 did not pass R1 because she did not pass R1 with her entire body, how do you explain that she touched the plate first with passing.

And if you call her out for passing, how do you explain to the offensive coach when he argues the rules state the lead runner must be physically passed and the rules supplement is clear in its statement the runner must completely pass the body of the lead runner?

I have no idea what the rules clarification may be on this from the rules committe, but based on the wording of the rule and rules supplement I do not believe you have rules basis for calling the trailing runner out for passing.

So if you don't have an out for passing ... what's your call?

Isn't R1 forced, out if not passed?

Cant find anything in the book, but unless you consider the trailing runners touch of home to have removed the force play, I would tend to believe you still have a force situation on the lead runner. 3rd out, game over.

So the question is ... once R2 has scored, why would R1 still be forced? The base behind her is currently unoccupied - if she (for some odd reason) returned, there's no one there forcing her off the base.

Dead ball. R2 is out for leaving early on the pitch. Game is over

if she did that, NOW we have physically passing

R2 didn't leave early, even if you, in retrospect, wished that she did. :)

Not if R2 has already scored.

keep going

Where did that one come from? :)

But has R2 already scored? Is a runner allowed to score ahead of a preceding runner?

I grant this scenario is odd. TWP even. However, based on the rules I read, I see nothing preventing it. Do you?

Given that this would never really happen, and if it did, most umpires would likely "sell" some call that coaches would believe. But if it did, as odd as it sounds, I believe we have 2 runs here.

R2 did not pass anyone - no out there.
R2 scores, so no longer a force on R1.
R1 scores - she had to be tagged for her to be out.

2 runs - and run to your car.

Please explain how a force can be taken off, when R2 has not been put out? :D

Conceptually...
A force exists because the existence of a BR causes other runners to vacate their base and try to achieve the next one. If a runner is not forced to advance because of the existence of runners behind them having to take their bases, then they are not forced.

It's exactly the same as when a succeeding runner is put out. Example: Bases loaded, R2 is put out before reaching 3rd ... obviously R1 is no longer forced... it's common sense - she no longer has someone who must achieve the base behind her. Why would one be different than the other?

because one fits the definition for removing the force on a runner (preceding runner being put out). the other does not. (and not exactly the same)

R1 is still forced to advance only we can show a citation. (and from the OP, the third out was still a result of a force out, and no runs can score.... no matter what the timing is when they scored)

The OP stated left with the pitch. Runners cannot leave until the ball reaches the plate.

I stand by my call. :p

I assumed fast pitch, apparently so did others. :rolleyes:

You did WHAT?!?! :eek:

Runs must be scored in the correct order. A trailing runner cannot score prior to the lead runner.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

Rule cite?

C'mon, he said it was a story. Do you ask Sleeping Beauty the name of the matchmaking service that sent over Prince Charming? :rolleyes:

I posed a similar question to a National Staff Member,
 

You cannot get the runner for passing another runner as that can only be called if the entire body is past the runner. Didn't happen here...I believe you score both runs.

If R2 is not out for passing R1 because her entire body has not passed R1, I have R1 forced at the plate for the third out, visitors win. No run is scored as R1 was forced at HP.

MD Longhorn, you really found a LARGE can of worms.

ASA 10-1
NFHS 10-2-3g
NCAA 15.2

Seriously, there's no way in hell I'm allowing R1 to score AFTER R2 has touched the plate. I fully accept the definition of passing a runner, but that should not apply when it comes to touching home plate.

Home plate is treated differently with respect to runners touching it than other bases. If R1 passes but fails to touch any other base, and then R2 touches it, R1 still has the opportunity to correct the miss by having R2 reverse track (and touch again) that base, and then R1 touches it. The same is not true at home plate.

You can't have it both ways here. Either you recognize that in this unusual circumstance R2 passed R1, so that R2 is out, or R2 didn't pass R1, which means R1 is still forced at home and is out.

I agree. this situation seems tailor-made for the god rule.

The notion of a trailing runner scoring first without passing is not covered in the rules, let alone what impact (if any) this may have on whether the lead runner is still forced.

Well, if we're using the "a plane just landed on the field during a play" rule, I can't argue with you.

xtremeump
 

Authoritative Opinion by Jay Miner for 2013 NYSSO Rules (Not an Official Interpretation) 06-14-13.

1. R2 from second base is not out for passing R1 from third base because R2 did not completely pass R1 (R/S #39). Therefore, R2’s run scores.

2. Because R2 from second legally scored, R2 is no longer a runner, and R1 from third must be tagged to be retired. Because R1 was not tagged and did touch the plate R1’s run also counts. R1 was not forced to home because R1 could theoretically return to third with no runner forcing R1 home.

3. The Home Team Wins 2-1. (Have the car running and facing out in the parking lot)

Note: This play requires an official interpretation and/or a casebook play.



Opinions may be sent to: [email protected]

Sorry, not accepted as authoritative opinion.

You know, I think RS #39 wording is suspect.

39. Passing a Runner. Passing a runner may occur while runners are advancing or returning to a base. Normally it occurs when a lead runner stops to see if a ball will be caught and the trail runner, also watching the ball, does not see the lead runner stopped. The trail runner, the runner doing the passing, is called out and the ball remains live. To pass a runner, the trail runner must pass the entire body of the lead runner, not just an arm or leg ahead of the trail runner

Note that it states that the passing runner must pass the entire body of the lead runner. It doesn't say that the passing runner's entire body must be in front of the lead runner's.

xtremeump
 

Jay would love to hear from you please e-mail him and voice your opinion. I dare you.

Where do you get the ridiculous idea that a one-State interpreter who applies baseball to everything is any kind of dare to be challenged by any of us, let alone one who has proven himself like Steve? :eek: :(

xtremeump
 

Jay puts his e mail on here for all of you experts to teach him something. Do not feal challenged be enlightened. Jay checks his e mail almost as much of all of you experts come on this forum. Again he has invited you to contact him. I DARE YOU .
Nobody on hear will lol.

Yet the question from cecilone still stands?

xtremeump
 

Simply answer the OP question ??? That play will never happen, but if we all can learn something thats a good thing. Cecilone and Irish have a question not a comment on how the CLONES do things, first time for everything. Its ok that you guys are afraid of Jay, he likes it that way.:D

Afraid - wrong word, wrong thought. More like not accepted as authority, so not worth any effort to contact.

And yet, you haven't answered a simple question.

Clone? You haven't a clue. I've posted my concerns on the wording of the rule. And based on that, I would rule on the trailer passing the lead runner. What would you do, call Jay?

I'm sure Jay is a fine umpire and does a helluva job on the field. But I don't need to call Jay, there is nothing I can learn from him. And that isn't because I'm a "clone" whatever the **** that means, but because I've been taught by some of the best umpires in the country as have quite a few other umpires on this site.

xtremeump
 

Authoritative Opinion by Jay Miner for 2013 NYSSO Rules (Not an Official Interpretation) 06-14-13.

What does Opinion mean ??? What does (Not an Official Interpretation mean) ?

Clone, I will tell you what a Clone is. Someone that will not touch a bat when it is in harms way. Jim Evans takes one whole day at his school teaching you that you are responsible to clear the bat if you can. A Clone has a Black and White way to Umpire any contest. A Clone would never think of changing his Plate Stance. A Clone would never Umpire out of there circle for fear of being exposed. Its a great game, and I have been to all of thease ASA National Umpire Clinics, Little League International Baseball/Softball Umpire School.In NY we use ASA rules for HS play, Jay is the State Interpreter.. From the very little contact I have with you guys, some is very good, some I would like you to keep the Clones away. My good friend EsqUmp is smarter than all of you put together and I come on here to find the good information. The only thing that happenes is I get discouraged and log off.

xtremeump
 

there is nothing I can learn from him.

CLONE CLONE CLONE

Wow! That was quick!

I've only been active again on this board for a few days or so after not posting here for many months, and I've already added to my ignore list!

Not respecting and adhering to the mechanics prescribed by the 'alphabet' one is working. Some of the worst partners one can ever have. :eek:

Phil, you are absolutely correct and it is a disservice to your (generic, not Phil) partner to do that. Had an umpire working a HS game this year tell his partner (2nd year) that he was going to use NCAA mechanics so working HS doesn't affect his NCAA game.

His partner had no idea what that meant as far as it concerned responsibilities or coverage and was on edge the entire game trying to figure out what HE was supposed to do that wouldn't screw up his partner.

I am going with Manny.....he is a Colonel....and out ranked anyone in my family. And he can rain down artillery anywhere he wants.

Plus, I agree with him. d;-)

Joel

I sent him mine......just so you would not call me a chicken.

I have less experience (only 38 years umpiring) than many here.

Joel

Manny, I'm not saying you're wrong...
 

But, how do you handle the defensive coaches protest?

By making him show me that the run scores.

Very simple actually.

Joel

And when he asks you why the run doesn't score...
 

and you respond that the second runner passed the first runner and therefore you're not going to allow the run and he then quotes you the rule regarding a runner passing another runner and backs you into a corner how do you deal with that? Again, I'm not saying I'm disagreeing but I'd like to know how to handle this?

I would show him how "runs are scored".......

Have him prove me wrong.

Don't get me wrong.....I would allow the protest.....but I would still win it.

Joel

xtremeump
 

Do not worry big guy I am done here, I really thought this could be productive, but this is my third time and I am disappointed.

xtremeump
 

Historical Notes: After thirty years of Major League action, many unusual incidents had occurred along the basepaths. Among the most unusual was a play in which a baserunner passed a teammate who was running the bases ahead of him. As a result, in 1904, a rule was adopted which stated that a baserunner shall be declared "...out if he touch home base before a baserunner preceding him in the batting order...."
The rule was expanded in 1907 to include a baserunner who passed a preceding runner in a rundown.

Or even worse......... :rolleyes:

xtremeump
 

Irish, I realy respect you and your comments, but when you really think about it CLONES are the enemy of realistic Officiating. Being a State Interpreter you have seen them. I know that there are some very smart Umpires on here, and I have learned from them. But some of the comments are CLONE coments...:eek:

I have really thought about it, and I've somehow managed to not come to that conclusion. Umpires running around inventing mechanics that are not recognized by their partners, or being where they should not be - those are the "enemy of realistic umpiring" if there is such a thing.

That play almost did happen in my fathers slow pitch league many years ago. There were bases loaded, 2 outs, last inning. I don't recall the score. The runner at third is walking home, while the runners on second and first are sprinting trying to score. By the time the runner from 3rd gets near the plate the runner on second is going into a slide and the runner from 1st is right behind him.

The throw also came in at about the same time. The R1 (3b) touched the plate, R2 slide in under the tag, and R3 was nailed at the plate for the third out.

The only reason I know this is it was part of a discussion on the way to MIS for the NASCAR race Sunday. One of the players involved is still an idiot working at the same place and they were talking stories of his stupidity (he was the runner on 3rd).

From what I recall, and they recall, had the catcher been touching the plate when the ball was caught, R1 would have been out as a force, from a ball that was a double off the bat.

xtremeump
 

Please do not think that I am refering to most of you guys. It is a slang word that I picked up for Umpires that will not change for the good of the game. Umpires that were never trained by a school or clinic. But now they are a 30 year Umpire, & I after goine to real training and schools try to show them the new way of officiating. They do not listen, they are CLONES, they will not change at all, and they will not attened any clinics. I know that we feal diferent about a few things but I can get past that. We are in the position that we are in because we voluntered at one point in our life. Now it is our lifestyle, & i would not change a thing. Quality of LIFE is more important than anything. Sorry for the rant.

No........in your earlier posts....you were crucifying umpires who stood by prescribed mechanics and interpretations to make a point.

Now you are trying to save your own ass.

I don't blame you. I would do the same thing.

You have shown how much NY umpires have in knowledge in real ASA interpretations........thank you for that.

xtremeump
 

I am trying to get along, what could I posibly need to save my own @ss for ?? Are the CLONES going to atack me ?? I have shown what I know, I do not speak for anyone but me, and I need to learn something everyday. Today I learned that you sir are not anything more than a Blow Hard. :p

xtremeump
 

I would show him how "runs are scored".......

Have him prove me wrong.

Don't get me wrong.....I would allow the protest.....but I would still win it.

Joel

Rules Reference/Interpretations/Case Plays, on you winning this protest... Show everyone how good you are ???

Show everyone how much that you know Blow Hard. :(

I agree, xt.

I'm still looking for what this refers to... what rule, exactly, are you showing him?

Hope you stay around long enough to learn how wrong that comment is. :rolleyes:

xtremeump
 

Me too :rolleyes: