How do you handle this
 

I had this in a JV game a few weeks ago.

I am the BU. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, or bases loaded. Fly ball towards the gap between LF and CF. LF is speedy and might get to the ball. I decide 1 am going out, so I yell "Going" to my partner. The ball bounces off the LF's glove near the wall. Since there was only 1 out, players held up on the play to see if it would be caught. After the bounces off the LF's glove when she made a diving attempt, she immediately picks it up and fires it to the SS (cutoff), who guns it to second base. B4 had rounded second thinking of going to third and was now making a quick retreat back to 2b. The throw comes in and there is a close play at 2b. Since this was 2man, and I had gone out, I was watching the play, but wasn't in position to make the call. I look for my partner to make the call, and he is standing behind home plate.

What should I do? Should I wait for him to make a decision, even though I don't think he was watching the play? Should I call the play the way I saw it from about 20 feet into the outfield grass and about 45 degrees to the base?



I did not go out on another fly ball the rest of that game because I wasn't sure if he would cover the bases or not on the play.

I think you should buy your partner dinner.
And lots of beer.

Your partners call he needs to make one. if he did not see it he must call safe. When and if he comes to you you can give him what you have.

This is a good example of why we should pregame.

As pointed out earlier.....pre-game. Adding my .02 cents to that reply....you might want to to re-think your chase read/process/react criteria with multiple runners on base when working two-man.

You need to do what is right as the base umpire. You don't deviate from proper mechanics because of your partner's poor mechanics.

Umpires don't learn mechanics when someone else substitutes and covers.

Speak with the umpire, ask him how far up his a$$ his head was. He shouldn't be standing directly behind home plate to begin with. The ball has to go 200 feet out and 200 feet back, and the umpire probably didn't take 1 step for every 100 feet the ball traveled.

I disagree on pre-gaming this... this is standard. Pregaming what PU should do when BU goes out is like pregaming that you'll be in B with a runner on first. It's basic. You pregame the optional stuff or the weird stuff... not the baby stuff.

PU screwed the pooch.

That said, in your situation, I would hesitate and then once you realize he's not going to make a call, make it. Then when the inning is over, discuss it with him. If he was just asleep at the wheel, move on... if he's not qualified for this game and NEEDS to be spoon fed the baby stuff, do it.

But don't refuse to go out the rest of the game because he screwed up once. This is the equivalent of deciding to make fair/foul calls because you saw him miss one.

Curious why you would say this. He said, "The ball bounces off the LF's glove near the wall." I can't imagine NOT going out on such a ball could possibly be the right answer. I'm not exactly famous for taking chap's side on this site... ;) But in this case going out had to be right.

Mike.....

Where I was going with the question I posed to the OP, was for me to get a better understanding of the sitch at the start of the play.

I'm BU, I know from the OP I've got 1 out. 2nd & 3rd? or bases full (still don't know). With bases full, if I have to chase, I need to be aware that my PU is going to have a lot to cover....even if from a positioning and mechanics standpoint he does everything properly.

Certainly, "ball bounces of LF's glove near the wall" is trouble and requires recognition and reaction by the crew....BU chasing PU recognizing that he is now responsible for BR and three runners; or BU button-hooks into the in field, PU taking the catch no-catch, BU picking up his base runner(s)/BR responsibilities.

What's the point I'm trying to make???

I've got no problem with the chase by the BU, I've got no problem if he chose not to chase, and maybe as implied in the OP the PU didn't do enough on his end of the play. But with basess loaded (?) and the BU chasing I think that the best the PU could have to done on the call at 2nd, (assuming the speed at which the play developed) was a calling position somewhere in the area between HP and the circle.

Maybe in this sitch the PU isn't advanced enough in his mechanics to realize OK, I've got three runner crossing the plate and I've possibly got another play I've got to get in position to cover.

This was a play with a lot of 'moving parts', depending on the experience and umpiring savvy of the crew, not an easy one to properly cover. The PU's coverage wasn't correct, but IMO he's getting tossed under the bus a tad quickly.

I will disagree with you on not covering this in a pre-game, and apologize to everyone for a rather long winded rambling reply.:confused:

Of course this is all.....JMHO.

I will go on record as disagreeing with the chase decision. I personally think that base umpires chasing because of the less than 1% catch/no catch situation that the plate umpire MAY not clearly see (but HAS to judge any other fr*cking time the same ball is NOT in a chase area) compared to the probably 50% or more liklihood of a play at the bases that plate umpire can NEVER get in good position for, let alone the possibility of multiple plays on multiple runners, multiple appeals for leaving early, missed bases, etc..

Yep, put me down for STAY HERE AND BE A BASE UMPIRE, not chase that low percentage issue.

Chase with 3 man mechanics, because we now revert to two man, OK. Chase in 2 man, better be one or no runners in my game.

Perhaps this varies from place to place.

I can promise that if I show up for a game and during the pre-game say, "If I go out, you cover the bases", the reaction will be one of the following:
1) Of course, rookie.
2) Of course ... do you think this is my first game?
3) No shit, Sherlock.

It would be the same as if I said ... "If we have a runner on first, I'll be in B."

Granted ... if the pregame starts with my partner saying something like... "Wow, this is only my 3rd game behind the plate!" or if my assignor warned me that my partner was green as grass, things would be different.

I will agree with Steve here. In two umpire mechanics, my training has always been that, yes, the BU can chase whenever s/he feels it necessary, but with multiple runners, it "shouldn't" be necessary.

I will also stick up a bit for the PU here, speaking as if I was the PU. It is entirely possible that when this ball was hit, the PU saw that it might be a trouble ball, and focused on the fielders and the catch/no catch. He may not have picked up the the BU chased. If I was PU in a two umpire system on this play, I would not expect my partner to chase with 2 or 3 runners on base. That being said, I would still be out in the infield toward where the play was made and not standing behind the plate.

More good possibilities. Even more reason to not decide, as BU, to never go out again with this partner, and instead to go discuss with partner in between innings.

And my reply to you would be:
1) Don't go out with multiple runners on base.
2) See #1

I just got a invitation to work on your side of town. I may have to accept, it sounds like fun. As long as it's not over 80 degrees.

Are you fr*ckin' kidding? Here is the weather forecast for Las Vegas JO Classic this weekend:

Thursday high 105, low 79, 0% chance of rain
Friday high 107, low 82, 0% chance of rain
Saturday high 110, low 82, 0% chance of rain
Sunday high 107, low 79, 0% chance of rain

:eek::eek::eek:

Yeah, Steve, but it's a dry heat. And it's Vegas!

You've muddied the issue a bit, making it appear I said something I didn't.

The initial issue was that PU did not know he was supposed to cover bases if BU went out. The advice was that this should be pregamed. My reply was that PU should always know he has all the bases if BU goes out.

I was not saying or even implying that "when to go out" should not be part of a pre-game --- I was just disagreeing with the idea that "if I go out, you cover the bases" should be pregamed.

Got me laughing on that one Mike! :)
I mean got me laughing on all three.

Got it MD.

I wouldn't pregame it either, unless I felt I needed to. If I did mention it in a pregame and got one of the three responses you listed, he/she better be on top of their game, because I'll be expecting quite a lot and will let them know when they screw up.

When it comes to going out, what I pre-game with my BU partners is to find out if they are going to bother. Many don't, even on trouble balls down the line when they're in A, and that's something I'd like to know ahead of time. It amazes me how many umpires in my association feel that way.

Conversely, I will tell my partners that I will go out from A, because they may be the same guys who never bother and may not expect me to.

So, when you are not in A, who gets the trouble balls down the line?

Maybe just me, but I would rather make that call all day long than trail the batter from home to 3rd or home to home when F9 lets it get by.

I don't mind trailing the batter. Maybe when these 50+ year-old legs aren't as functional as they used to be, I'll reconsider. ;)

My point was there are many umpires who flat-out won't bother to go out from A, no matter what. I don't have a problem with that, per se. But I always ask that question at pre-game so I'm ready to take all the calls in the outfield.

Many years ago, I had a partner that went out on every flyball to the outfield. Caught me by surprise the first time he went out on a routine ball........:eek:

He also tried to come back in after the catch to help with coverage a few times. Pretty nightmarish for me to be on page 1 and he was on page 1082.

Had a chat with him between innings and he told me that was his job....He got all of the catches in the outfield and the infield was mine.

Also had a chat with our UIC.....:rolleyes:

Sounds like a guy from the FL panhandle that I and a few fellow local umpires have dealt with in the past.

[/war story]I was working 1B in a WC championship game in Plant City and we were being evaluated for certification purposes. First inning, ball down LF line, U3 starts out. I come inside, watch BR hit 1B, see the ball just being picked-up by LF and take running into 2B. All of a sudden, U3 appears out of nowhere in the infield. I look at him like, WTF are you doing here? He just smiled. As I move to my position, I look over and see HP making notes. I think, "great, just what I need during an eval." Next batter hits another down the LF line, U3 starts out, I peek to make sure PU moving to holding zone watching R1, turn to see BR touch 1B and take runner into 2B and WTF! Here is that idiot again, damn near standing next to me. I look over my shoulder and my roommate working the plate is laughing his ass off, knowing that I'm gonna be pissed if this guy keeps running all over the field. I look at Henry and he is just shaking his head, making notes.

Following inning, nobody on, hard line drive up the middle going to the fence, I button hook, watch BR touch the base and look for U3 before rotating to home and he is AWOL and there is a throw coming to 2B. He is hanging out just off the line near 3B, so I have to break back toward 2B for a close call. Luckily, the ball wasn't handled well by F4, so a call wasn't necessary.

After calling time, the PU is having a little conversation with U3 who is just smiling his ass off. The whole game went like this. Drove me crazy. I think he thought being involved in as much as possible would reflect well on his eval :eek:

[/war story]

That is the problem not knowing what your partner is thinking or intending to do. As the PU, I have every ball until my partner(s) indicate otherwise and, yes, turning your back to the infield is an indication that you have the ball. The only problem is, I've had partners NOT on the line go out on a ball that is. As much as I might want to hang that partner out to dry sometimes, it isn't the teams' fault, so I will not do it. But holding on the line for fair/foul can make it difficult to cover a distant base.

That's why though it needn't be a long, in-depth conversation, it should probably be at least mentioned in the pre-game.

Manny, I think you are missing the point. Trailing part way to first isn't a problem, of course I do it, That's the job.

I'm talking about taking the batter-runner solo from home to first, then second, third, and possibly home, because BU chases a ball that was down off the bat, and it gets past F9. Meanwhile, BU is looking for a place to sit watching me run the bases for him, or else making meaningless and redundant "safe" signals while F9 chases the obviously uncaught ball.

That is the part I don't get. There is the no ball, no call philosophy, (which I endorse strongly), no signal on the obvious foul ball, etc., but if you got out, you need to make a signal? Why?

The ball is 12 feet fair and an umpire is pointing! A ball bounces UP to the outfielder and the umpire is signaling safe!

Maybe we are talking on different frequencies. When I said "trailing", I didn't mean just part way up first base. I guess I should've said "taking responsibility for the BR the whole way."

I, too, feel the same about obvious uncatchable balls. It is a little irritating to see a partner turn his/her back to watch a line shot the easily gets through the F8-F9 gap.

On a FP field of 200-240 feet.....the base umpire should almost never go out.

My Opinion

The larger SP fields are a different matter. It still should be a rare occurance......But I reserve the right to be swayed otherwise.

Joel

The criteria I learned some years ago in baseball for chasing hold true for softball.
1-a ball to the wall
2-a ball on the line
3-fielder charging in
4-fielder charging out
5-fielders coming together
When one of these is met, there's no good reason not to chase.

With the newer NCAA policy of Reading and then reacting to chase I have come up with the following protocol on chasing.

I look for the 'factors'. In every Fly ball there will be at least 2 factors- the ball and the fielder catching the ball. Any time there is an additional 'factor' I consider chasing.

Other factors include- another Fielder, the wall, the line, the Fielder Running.

I also pre pitch whether or not the umpires are even or out number the offensive players. When the umpires outnumber the offensive players, IE- no one on or one runner (in 3 Umpire) I will chase more than stay. When we are even with them, I make sure the chase is a good one, and when the offensive players outnumber the umpires, I hope the play will be on Sports Center later that evening.