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BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 10:49am

can't get games
 
Got a big problem.

I accepted a set of summer games (non-NFHS) under the conditions I'd do them only if the league/teams involved were registered with this same well-known summer national softball association that I umpire for in order to be eligible for umpire liability insurance if something bad happens and I get sued. The assigner said my umpire liability insurance with this well-known national summer time softball association (not saying which one) will cover me. I believed his sincerity but in reality I did not believe him. The assigner is also in the management ranks of this same well-known national summer time softball assocation which makes matters worse as you'll read below.

I accepted to do the games in the meantime and I told the assigner I'd do my own research to confirm whether umpire liability coverage is in effect for teams/leagues not registered with this well-known summer time national softball association that I have a umpire license with.

***-24 hours passes and for whatever reason, I'm thinking I accepted the games conditionally. The assigner thinks I accepted them unconditionally, but with the option of cancelling out on games with reasonable lead times. There's email proof that favors the assigner and not me. But keep in mind, what's at stake here -- me umpiring an unsanctioned game(s).

One the day of my first set of games I get a phone call from some coach confirming my arrival and had to inform him I did not accept the games.

I emailed the assigner within 10 minutes of refusing the games. The assigner emails me back minutes later saying in so many words (not exact) that I gave no warning and that he'll be taking me off of his assigning list.

I then did some phone calls / emails over the next few days to the underwriter insurance company that covers umpire liability insurance for the summer time assocation, and I email and phone the state umpire chief for this well-known summer time association. BOTH parties said I was NOT covered.

I emailed my assigner and told him I would not have been covered in those games if something bad happened.

Now, I can't get future games. I notified the local umpire president who is above this assigner person and the president says back to me in an email "I gave bad customer service" to the teams.

I spent a lot of time and money getting ready for this and now I can't get games. Should I get an attorney and sue the people in charge locally of this well-known national summer time softball association (again not going to reveal the assocation)?

I'm thinking the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I was joyfully sold into taking a set of uninsured games with the assigner telling me in error I was covered (his BIG TIME fault). I stupidly accepted the games under the understanding I would check on the umpire liability status, which is something the assigner should have known -- doing his job for him.

What should I do? I have an uniform, umpire training, equipment, but no games.

Andy Wed May 29, 2013 11:28am

The obvious answer is to find another assignor. I realize that may not be possible in your area, however.

If insurance is your major concern, you do have some options. Purchase the National Association of Sports Officials (NASO) coverage. It is very reasonably priced and covers you for any sport you officiate, regardless of the sanctioning body.

You also mentioned NFHS..If you are a registered NFHS official in your state, the insurance coverage extends to you officiating any sport at any level that is also a sanctioned HS sport in your state.

I would also recommend that you do the research for yourself on these options to make sure they will work for you. Then, you can accept games without having to worry about being covered by a specific association.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 895889)
The obvious answer is to find another assignor. I realize that may not be possible in your area, however.

There's a monopoly in my area. I would have to road-trip it out of town to do games. It would then become a feasibility issue.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 895889)
If insurance is your major concern, you do have some options. Purchase the National Association of Sports Officials (NASO) coverage. It is very reasonably priced and covers you for any sport you officiate, regardless of the sanctioning body.

I'm aware of various companies that can cover me...for another outlay of money of course. The concern here is not getting games and what is going overboard on something they should be up on....with them being glib about it and refusing to assign me games, and passing it all off as poor customer service on my part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 895889)
You also mentioned NFHS..If you are a registered NFHS official in your state, the insurance coverage extends to you officiating any sport at any level that is also a sanctioned HS sport in your state.

That's true for secondary health insurance but not liability coverage if you get sued. I know that for a fact because I contacted the very claims people about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 895889)
I would also recommend that you do the research for yourself on these options to make sure they will work for you. Then, you can accept games without having to worry about being covered by a specific association.

I've done my research. My experience in doing USSF soccer is what make the red light go off in my head about liability coverage in the first place. We were warned in USSF soccer not to ref games on your own between teams not registered with USSF because the liability insurance isn't covered.

Monopoly in my town. One guy does all of the assigning and I come to find out he has no tentative plans to give me any games....hence the desire to possibly sue him.

I think you're missing the point. I should not have to go to these extremes nor should I have to get beat up for refusing games for an issue that would have been detrimental to my personal possessions if I get sued. No apology on their part whatsoever and no desire on their part to repair the working relationship. They hold all of the cards ...so far.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 12:14pm

I don't think he's "missing the point" at all, he was trying to help.

If this is indeed a national organization, the local guy you're having an issue with is not the end of the chain, and if everything you said is true, those higher ups are not going to appreciate him running unsanctioned events under their moniker.

Insane Blue Wed May 29, 2013 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895894)
There's a monopoly in my area. I would have to road-trip it out of town to do games. It would then become a feasibility issue.

I live in So. Cal where you have the complete alphabet of tournaments including some you may have never heard of.
I travel every weekend to work tournaments because I like to work good competitive tournaments versus the local ones that may not be so competitive. As far as leagues and HS I have traveled upwards of 85 miles one way to work a games. Granted they pay travel so I basically get $100 for those games. If you do not want to travel then you need to get out now.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895894)
I'm aware of various companies that can cover me...for another outlay of money of course. The concern here is not getting games and what is going overboard on something they should be up on....with them being glib about it and refusing to assign me games, and passing it all off as poor customer service on my part.



That's true for secondary health insurance but not liability coverage if you get sued. I know that for a fact because I contacted the very claims people about that.

As for Insurance I have ASA and ASA optional coverage, NASO, and Volleyball insurance through my unit. yes I am over covered but for the $!00 extra I pay every year I don't have to worry as much. ( I still am very wary of getting sued though.) I am covered for all sports through NASO no matter what Alphabet I an working.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895894)
I've done my research. My experience in doing USSF soccer is what make the red light go off in my head about liability coverage in the first place. We were warned in USSF soccer not to ref games on your own between teams not registered with USSF because the liability insurance isn't covered.

I agree you should not work games if you are not covered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895894)
Monopoly in my town. One guy does all of the assigning and I come to find out he has no tentative plans to give me any games....hence the desire to possibly sue him.

I think you're missing the point. I should not have to go to these extremes nor should I have to get beat up for refusing games for an issue that would have been detrimental to my personal possessions if I get sued. No apology on their part whatsoever and no desire on their part to repair the working relationship. They hold all of the cards ...so far.

Then you need to call him and get on the same page. I am Assuming you are talking ASA but who knows I do not have to worry as I am covered by NASO for any games I work.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Blue (Post 895908)
Then you need to call him and get on the same page. I am Assuming you are talking ASA but who knows I do not have to worry as I am covered by NASO for any games I work.

Not sure phoning the assigner will help matters. I already explained my position by way of email to him and he doesn't reply back...and I've done it respectfully (level headed) in my email words.

His position will probably be, "you backed out of some games without notice, and that trumps your concern about liability insurance."

Not sure how to respond to a forecasted response like that especially when the local president agrees with him "it wasn't good customer service to back out."

The state I'm talking about is not a warm weather state whereby softball can be played all year long. We are looking at 12 more weeks of play at most with the last 4 weeks reserved for experienced umpires to do the playoffs which puts me out of the picture.

If I have to go over their heads to get justice it could take weeks cutting into the remaining 8 weeks of the season I could ump, right? Even if I win my grievance I still have to work with them to get games, etc.

To make matters worse, these same two guys perform the same task while school is in session in the (fill-in-the-blank state) High School Athletic Association. I have to deal with them in two separate organizations.

Manny A Wed May 29, 2013 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895877)
I accepted to do the games in the meantime and I told the assigner I'd do my own research to confirm whether umpire liability coverage is in effect for teams/leagues not registered with this well-known summer time national softball association that I have a umpire license with.
.
.
.
I then did some phone calls / emails over the next few days to the underwriter insurance company that covers umpire liability insurance for the summer time assocation, and I email and phone the state umpire chief for this well-known summer time association. BOTH parties said I was NOT covered.

Okay, so if I understand you correctly:
1. You are assigned games and you accept them with the caveat that you would do research to verify coverage (or the lack thereof).
2. Some significant amount of time (not clear from your post) goes by before you are called by a coach to find out if you're coming, and you tell him No.
3. You contact the assignor telling him you won't do the games, so he tells you he's taking you off his list.
4. THEN you decide to call to check on your coverage??

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895877)
I was joyfully sold into taking a set of uninsured games with the assigner telling me in error I was covered (his BIG TIME fault). I stupidly accepted the games under the understanding I would check on the umpire liability status, which is something the assigner should have known -- doing his job for him.

So now you're blaming the assignor? Sounds to me like you didn't do your due diligence when you told your assignor that you were going to check on your coverage. If I were the assignor and you told me that, I would have expected a follow-up response within a day or two to let me know what you found out. Instead, you never got back to him until the day of the games; of course he's going to be pissed off. He probably assumed you checked and everything was okay.

I really can't offer you a solution that's going to get you onto the ball field to umpire games. You pursue suing these folks, they're never going to want your services, regardless of how the suit plays out.

Robmoz Wed May 29, 2013 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895877)
"...I accepted to do the games in the meantime and I told the assigner I'd do my own research to confirm whether umpire liability coverage is in effect for teams/leagues not registered with this well-known summer time national softball association that I have a umpire license with."

Perhaps mincing words here but accepted means accepted, there is no concept of "conditionally" here and you should have not initially accepted if you had any concerns. Now, there are times when you may have to turn back a game for various reasons which can drive your assignor crazy on short notice but usually not to the extent of "de-listing" you from his roster - unless habitual.

IMO, there is either more to the story or your assigner is really taking a hard line stance with weak justification.

Perhaps a follow up phone call to see if you can work out your differences of opinion, request a fresh "do-over", or to just beg for forgiveness citing your lack of experience in how the assigning expectations are administered. In any event, IF you want to work for this guy and its the only game in town then you will have to find a way to accommodate him. Monopolistic issue is not uncommon in many areas of the country across various sports; and it discourages people from getting into officiating - which is a shame.

Assigning is not an easy task and unfortunately some inconsiderate officials can ruin it for the whole roster by being double-bookers, or chronic tardy tales, or uniform derelicts, to the extent that the assigner has to apply harsh enforcement across the board. Usually, just a notice issued to the entire roster as a reminder about expectations suffices. Again, in this OP, I would agree that the punishment seems too harsh and that you should find a way to revisit the issue to work it out and learn from it....don't be stubborn and assuming that a phone call will be a waste of your time.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 895910)
Okay, so if I understand you correctly:
1. You are assigned games and you accept them with the caveat that you would do research to verify coverage (or the lack thereof).
2. Some significant amount of time (not clear from your post) goes by before you are called by a coach to find out if you're coming, and you tell him No.
3. You contact the assignor telling him you won't do the games, so he tells you he's taking you off his list.
4. THEN you decide to call to check on your coverage??

Correct. I apologized and offer to directly respond to the unsanctioned league to smooth things over.

As far as point 2 is concerned, we are looking at about 2-3 days.

Robmoz Wed May 29, 2013 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895909)
'...If I have to go over their heads to get justice it could take weeks cutting into the remaining 8 weeks of the season I could ump, right? Even if I win my grievance I still have to work with them to get games, etc.

To make matters worse, these same two guys perform the same task while school is in session in the (fill-in-the-blank state) High School Athletic Association. I have to deal with them in two separate organizations.

Justice may be swift but it most likely will not be served as you think.:(

Every assigner (myself included) at every level I have ever worked has usually been very reasonable, understanding of circumstances, fair and firm when needed, and generally are "good people"; they didn't get to be assigners by being jerks...afterall, they NEED officials but even the most desperate assigner would not want to work with someone that makes their life miserable. Take the high road here and make a phone call to him, be humble, build a bridge, give him a chance or a reason to change his mind to reconsider.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robmoz (Post 895911)
Again, in this OP, I would agree that the punishment seems too harsh and that you should find a way to revisit the issue to work it out and learn from it....don't be stubborn and assuming that a phone call will be a waste of your time.

Honestly I'm pissed.

You do one honest oversight and it's all over. It wasn't a blatant skipping out. I had reservations about the games all along. I had other work matters that apparently go me sidetracked. I followed up with both the coach and the assignor. I brought the matter to his attention immediately after refusing the games because I could not get the liability issue resolved in time.

How many other umpires has he placed in this unsanctioned league? He won't talk to me.

I'm not apologizing to the guy again, anymore than Sir William Wallace is going to apologize to Longshanks (Braveheart movie).

It's his job to stay on top of insurance issues and not pushing that matter of to the newcomer. If he's making the new guys doiing that important stuff, then what exactly do board members do that's different from the newcomers?

Again, one oversight and it's over. I busted him on something serious.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895909)
If I have to go over their heads to get justice it could take weeks cutting into the remaining 8 weeks of the season I could ump, right? Even if I win my grievance I still have to work with them to get games, etc.

Get Justice? Hmmmm.

I think you need to decide what you want. If you want "justice", do one thing. If you just want to work, do the opposite. You're not going to get both here.

My suggestion to go "over their head" was because you said they are assigning unsanctioned events under the moniker of some National organization... if they are doing to --- the organization is not going to like that. Assuming what you've told us is true, what they are doing is wrong, and it needs to be stopped.

We had a similar situation somewhat near me - it did not take long for it to get out that the National Organization had nothing whatsoever to do with this guy, and numerous problems have arisen from him - but NO respected official for 100 miles around will work for this guy anymore.

But don't do this if you're expecting to work for these guys again.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 01:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895915)
Honestly I'm pissed.

You do one honest oversight and it's all over. It wasn't a blatant skipping out. I had reservations about the games all along. I had other work matters that apparently go me sidetracked. I followed up with both the coach and the assignor. I brought the matter to his attention immediately after refusing the games because I could not get the liability issue resolved in time.

How many other umpires has he placed in this unsanctioned league? He won't talk to me.

I'm not apologizing to the guy again, anymore than Sir William Wallace is going to apologize to Longshanks (Braveheart movie).

It's his job to stay on top of insurance issues and not pushing that matter of to the newcomer. If he's making the new guys doiing that important stuff, then what exactly do board members do that's different from the newcomers?

Again, one oversight and it's over. I busted him on something serious.

Then A) Why would you ever expect to work for this guy again and
B) Why would you WANT to work for this guy again.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 01:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895919)
Then A) Why would you ever expect to work for this guy again and
B) Why would you WANT to work for this guy again.

I have no other options. I love to ump....locally. I'm thinking I need to figure out how to take his job away so I can get back into the mix.

I want to compete for the job.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895920)
I have no other options. I love to ump....locally. I'm thinking I need to figure out how to take his job away so I can get back into the mix.

I want to compete for the job.

You have options. You were given one and you said you would never do that. You can't say you have no options when you discard the options when they are presented.

Like I said, you need to decide what you want... does your need for "justice" outweigh your desire to work.

Frankly, with all the responses so far it occurs to me that there's more behind this, and perhaps you've already been a thorn in people's side in the past. If true, this would explain the assignor's seemingly overly harsh response. Perhaps this was his final straw with you, or he was looking for a reason to close the book on you.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

In any case - good luck, I think you'll need it.

Andy Wed May 29, 2013 01:54pm

Your other option, and it would be a lot of work, is to form your own officials association and directly compete with him.

If this guy is as much of a jerk and hardliner as you say, then it is likely he has pissed off other umpires and officials in the area that may be open to joining a new association.

We (umpires) always say that we are independent contractors and are free to work, or not work, for whoever we want. However, we often conveniently forget that the assignors are independent too and are free to hire, or not hire, whoever they want. Legal action would more than likely be pointless.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 01:55pm

The only thing I can think of at this time is to start my own association from scratch perhaps with an already established national fast-pitch organization that is their competitor and begin selling the association to some existing leagues.

That's the only thing I can think of at this time.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 895926)
Your other option, and it would be a lot of work, is to form your own officials association and directly compete with him.

If this guy is as much of a jerk and hardliner as you say, then it is likely he has pissed off other umpires and officials in the area that may be open to joining a new association.

We (umpires) always say that we are independent contractors and are free to work, or not work, for whoever we want. However, we often conveniently forget that the assignors are independent too and are free to hire, or not hire, whoever they want. Legal action would more than likely be pointless.

I was liked by these two guys from the start. I even had an assessor watch me and formally email these two guys saying I did a really good job for my third game in the NFHS season. That's what got the ball rolling shortly thereafter when summer ball started. I was on an email of a few rookie umps being asked to umpire the league in question.

There's no prior history with me. Those guys liked me...and I liked them too.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 02:04pm

Do you suppose the association (not saying what that is) I'm currently registered with would be open to having two associations in the same area...somewhat competing against each other?

What about carving up the city into sections whereby I would do the assigning for some small area, while the existing group does the rest? You suppose that would fly?

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895930)
Do you suppose the association (not saying what that is) I'm currently registered with would be open to having two associations in the same area...somewhat competing against each other?

What about carving up the city into sections whereby I would do the assigning for some small area, while the existing group does the rest? You suppose that would fly?

Generally, it doesn't work that way.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 02:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895932)
Generally, it doesn't work that way.

...but has it ever been done before...and I don't necessarily mean in softball only?

I would think if they truly need volunteers at least the offer for man-power would be desirable. The key here is when they start to ask the question, "why I would want to do it?"

By the way, since we are on the subject of assigning games, are those volunteer positions or is there a little pay involved with that too?

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 02:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895933)
...but has it ever been done before...and I don't necessarily mean in softball only?

I would think if they truly need volunteers at least the offer for man-power would be desirable. The key here is when they start to ask the question, "why I would want to do it?"

It doesn't work that way because you have the whole equation backward.

That said --- how do you really think it's going to look when you approach the higher ups, saying, "Hi ... I'm a rookie that the other assignor has blackballed. I have no experience whatsoever umpiring and I've been to exactly one clinic - that one held locally. I'm completely ill-equipped to hold any clinics of my own and won't be for several years. I know about 6 umpires each of whom I've worked with once. I'd like to start up a new association and schedule some of the local leagues." At what point do you think they stop listening or start laughing.

No offense... but take a step back and ask yourself honestly if this is a realistic proposal that anyone would take seriously.

Robmoz Wed May 29, 2013 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895930)
Do you suppose the association (not saying what that is) I'm currently registered with would be open to having two associations in the same area...somewhat competing against each other?

What about carving up the city into sections whereby I would do the assigning for some small area, while the existing group does the rest? You suppose that would fly?

Conceptually, there is nothing preventing you from establishing your own association or assigning group. If you had a stable of officials that would join you to get started, that could take some time. Certainly, getting any league or conference or AD to consider your new group for contests would be your biggest challenge without having significant exposure to those decision makers through previous contact or respected recommendations. Reputation plays a large role in the world of assigning and that respect is not just given out to the new option in town, it is earned from hard work, dedication, and skill sets that are obtained from years of working your craft.

I can assure you that running your own association, let alone being an assigner, is not as easy as you may think. Perhaps getting actively involved in the existing local association would bring more awareness if not valuable experience (or recognition) to you in a more positive manner.;)

Manny A Wed May 29, 2013 02:41pm

You're willing to set up your own association, but you weren't willing to spend about two or three game fees to obtain the appropriate insurance coverage so you could work for the existing association?? Wow.

You're a rookie umpire by your own admission, and you've managed to alienate yourself from the president and assignor of the association, as well as probably gained a reputation from at the very least one coach (who may very well inform other coaches) that you won't live up to your assignments. Even our most senior umpires in my association wouldn't be looked at favorably for future games.

Honestly, if you really want to umpire softball, you may need to look into something outside of your town and start doing some serious driving. That, or just eat crow and apologize profusely to the association leadership.

Manny A Wed May 29, 2013 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895933)
By the way, since we are on the subject of assigning games, are those volunteer positions or is there a little pay involved with that too?

In our area, assignors get paid. They have to; nobody would do what they do for free.

I have no idea how much they get, but the game fees that our association negotiates with the various schools, leagues, and other organizations we provide our services to are docked a certain percentage to pay the assignor. For example, we may sign a contract with the XYZ Softball League that says each umpire gets $60 a game. But the umpire actually gets $55, with $2.50 going to the association and the other $2.50 going to the assignor.

Rich Wed May 29, 2013 03:19pm

You're a rookie and your biggest concern is liability insurance?

Get an umbrella policy or join NASO.

BTW, If I was the assignor I would probably (immediately) recognize you as a pain in the ass and wouldn't use you either.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 895936)
You're willing to set up your own association, but you weren't willing to spend about two or three game fees to obtain the appropriate insurance coverage so you could work for the existing association?? Wow.

You're a rookie umpire by your own admission, and you've managed to alienate yourself from the president and assignor of the association, as well as probably gained a reputation from at the very least one coach (who may very well inform other coaches) that you won't live up to your assignments. Even our most senior umpires in my association wouldn't be looked at favorably for future games.

Honestly, if you really want to umpire softball, you may need to look into something outside of your town and start doing some serious driving. That, or just eat crow and apologize profusely to the association leadership.

The issue of other insurance wasn't know over that time span. I had to make a snap judgement call ...and the assigner was of no help.

There was no animosity in the days leading up to the games.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 895940)
You're a rookie and your biggest concern is liability insurance?

Get an umbrella policy or join NASO.

BTW, If I was the assignor I would probably (immediately) recognize you as a pain in the ass and wouldn't use you either.

Nice comments. You are jumping to conclusions.

HugoTafurst Wed May 29, 2013 04:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895915)
Honestly I'm pissed.

You do one honest oversight and it's all over. It wasn't a blatant skipping out. I had reservations about the games all along. I had other work matters that apparently go me sidetracked. I followed up with both the coach and the assignor. I brought the matter to his attention immediately after refusing the games because I could not get the liability issue resolved in time.

How many other umpires has he placed in this unsanctioned league? He won't talk to me.

I'm not apologizing to the guy again, anymore than Sir William Wallace is going to apologize to Longshanks (Braveheart movie).

It's his job to stay on top of insurance issues and not pushing that matter of to the newcomer. If he's making the new guys doiing that important stuff, then what exactly do board members do that's different from the newcomers?

Again, one oversight and it's over. I busted him on something serious.

Ya know, this conversation, so far reminds me of some a conversation I was having with an umpire while we were resting between games.
We were talking about our kids and how we were brought up...
He said the best thing his dad ever asked hime was:

"Are you prepared to accept the consequenses for being right"

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895934)
It doesn't work that way because you have the whole equation backward.

That said --- how do you really think it's going to look when you approach the higher ups, saying, "Hi ... I'm a rookie that the other assignor has blackballed. I have no experience whatsoever umpiring and I've been to exactly one clinic - that one held locally. I'm completely ill-equipped to hold any clinics of my own and won't be for several years. I know about 6 umpires each of whom I've worked with once. I'd like to start up a new association and schedule some of the local leagues." At what point do you think they stop listening or start laughing.

No offense... but take a step back and ask yourself honestly if this is a realistic proposal that anyone would take seriously.

Not sure how to respond to this, if at all.

I'm highly educated. I got transferable skills and comparable experiences.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895942)
Nice comments. You are jumping to conclusions.

No, he's expressing an opinion based upon his observation of you and your comments here. He's not alone. If we can read your comments, your own justifications, your own opinions, and come to a conclusion that you might be the type of person that makes things difficult ... isn't it possible that your assignor had already done the same, even before the final incident?

Just from this thread... you asked for advice and then argued with it... you were given options to solve your problem, dismissed those options as something you weren't willing to do out of pride, and then complained about having no options... you espoused such disdain for the job of an assignor to assume that you, a self-professed rookie, could assume these duties easily... Ditto the task of mentoring and training umpires...

Are Rich's "conclusions" really a jump?

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst (Post 895943)
Ya know, this conversation, so far reminds me of some a conversation I was having with an umpire while we were resting between games.
We were talking about our kids and how we were brought up...
He said the best thing his dad ever asked hime was:

"Are you prepared to accept the consequenses for being right"

Back at ya. Have you read the biography of Steve Jobs? You want someone on the board that doesn't protect his fellow (newcomer) comrades?

HugoTafurst Wed May 29, 2013 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895930)
Do you suppose the association (not saying what that is) I'm currently registered with would be open to having two associations in the same area...somewhat competing against each other?

What about carving up the city into sections whereby I would do the assigning for some small area, while the existing group does the rest? You suppose that would fly?

Why in the world would they want to do that?

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895944)
Not sure how to respond to this, if at all.

I'm highly educated. I got transferable skills and comparable experiences.

Wow. Rich is right.

Nothing worse than a cocky rookie. You have NO IDEA how difficult it is to assign games, and if you think you can run a softball clinic and teach umpires how to be umpires after just a few games ... well - there are no words.

Based on this conversation alone, I wouldn't work with you. Do you think this attitude of yours has not filtered it's way to your assignor? I'm sure it has. People talk. You act like this with your partners, I GUARANTEE your attitude is known by your assignor. Now we can see the reason why he was seemingly overly harsh in his reaction to you canceling on him. Whether what he is doing is right or wrong regarding unsanctioned games - I can completely understand him looking for a reason to part ways with you.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895946)
Back at ya. Have you read the biography of Steve Jobs? You want someone on the board that doesn't protect his fellow (newcomer) comrades?

What board?

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895945)
Are Rich's "conclusions" really a jump?

Yep. I wasn't born yesterday. LOL

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895949)
What board?

Board = the folks that run the association

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895950)
Yep. I wasn't born yesterday. LOL

I fail to see what that has to do with what I said...
PS - don't be that guy who LOL's his own comments. That's like the obnoxious guy at the party that tells jokes no one laughs at, and then laughs himself into a stupor.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895948)
Wow. Rich is right.

Nothing worse than a cocky rookie. You have NO IDEA how difficult it is to assign games, and if you think you can run a softball clinic and teach umpires how to be umpires after just a few games ... well - there are no words.

Based on this conversation alone, I wouldn't work with you. Do you think this attitude of yours has not filtered it's way to your assignor? I'm sure it has. People talk. You act like this with your partners, I GUARANTEE your attitude is known by your assignor. Now we can see the reason why he was seemingly overly harsh in his reaction to you canceling on him. Whether what he is doing is right or wrong regarding unsanctioned games - I can completely understand him looking for a reason to part ways with you.

He knows nothing about me other than my polite and level-headed emails. LOL

I didn't bring up the subject with my fellow umpires.

Again, jumping to conclusions ...could this be because you too are taking some heat for something you did? LOL

Don't bother replying back. I got some quality advice mixed in with the smack to run with it....

HugoTafurst Wed May 29, 2013 04:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895944)
Not sure how to respond to this, if at all.

I'm highly educated. I got transferable skills and comparable experiences.

From reading the posts, I'm not sure your education extends to how the officiating racket works.
:D

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895951)
Board = the folks that run the association

I trying really hard not to pile on here...

But what did your comment have to do with Hugo's observation? Not following. The last 3 posts seem to be non sequitur time.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895952)
I fail to see what that has to do with what I said...
PS - don't be that guy who LOL's his own comments. That's like the obnoxious guy at the party that tells jokes no one laughs at, and then laughs himself into a stupor.

You remind me of the 'softball guy' Jim Rome talks about.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895953)
He knows nothing about me other than my polite and level-headed emails. LOL

I didn't bring up the subject with my fellow umpires.

Again, jumping to conclusions ...could this be because you too are taking some heat for something you did? LOL

Don't bother replying back. I got some quality advice mixed in with the smack to run with it....

Again ... trying very hard not to pile on... but it's getting more and more difficult.

You've completely missed my point. I was not saying you had THIS conversation with your fellow umpires. However, it is clear there are a great many things you don't know and don't understand. Normally, rookies are expected not to know these things --- but the issue here is that you don't seem to understand what you don't understand. That is the attitude that would come through loud and clear to your partners ... and that is the attitude that would get filtered in to your assignor.

His seemingly harsh response seems obviously to be more than just to the one incident. It's clear that was not a single problem, but a final straw.

If you really do want to work in this business, find some humility, realize that you are not smarter than everyone else in the room, admit when you are wrong and learn from those you can learn from. You're currently on the opposite road on all of these.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895955)
I trying really hard not to pile on here...

But what did your comment have to do with Hugo's observation? Not following. The last 3 posts seem to be non sequitur time.

You're probably not the guy that should be participating in this discussion.

You're already mad.

I never revealed the identity of the people of the association or the assocation itself.

You're making claims that I mouth off about everything. It's laughable because if you knew me you'd be like 'ummm...forget that stuff I said about you earlier.'

None of that is true. Good grief. Later.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895956)
You remind me of the 'softball guy' Jim Rome talks about.

The non sequitur parade keeps a'comin'.

Seriously, other than some incredulity toward your inability to "get it", I've been trying to help. These one liners aren't adding anything to the conversation. If you really want help, please ask. If not, we don't have to keep going with this. There's no purpose in making this a battle of witlessness.

BornToReferee Wed May 29, 2013 04:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst (Post 895954)
From reading the posts, I'm not sure your education extends to how the officiating racket works.
:D

Therein lies the problem -- racket.

CecilOne Wed May 29, 2013 04:52pm

OK, I think this is over.

"born to " :rolleyes:, you are stuck with the situation unless you can get an apology accepted or maybe restart next year, so be glad you have USSF.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 04:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895958)
You're probably not the guy that should be participating in this discussion.

You're already mad.

I never revealed the identity of the people of the association or the assocation itself.

You're making claims that I mouth off about everything. It's laughable because if you knew me you'd be like 'ummm...forget that stuff I said about you earlier.'

None of that is true. Good grief. Later.

Well, you posted on a public board... you don't get to pick and choose who replies to you. I'm really not mad, not at all... nothing to be mad at... and the identity of these people is entirely irrelevant. Hugo asked if you were ready to accept the consequences of being right ... an apt question when dealing with a situation where you might be right, but if you push the issue you will suffer some ramifications... Your response was nonsensical, and I really was trying to find your point in that mess.

Also, I made no such claims. I just told you that your attitude is clear here - and likely clear to your coworkers - and as such, your assignor is likely aware.

APG Wed May 29, 2013 05:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895944)
Not sure how to respond to this, if at all.

I'm highly educated. I got transferable skills and comparable experiences.

What would you provide to those in your area that the current association would not or is not able to provide? If they haven't had any issues with the current association, what incentive would anyone have to pick your new association? Who would you have to even follow you into your new association. You're a rookie...why is anyone going to follow a rookie who's barely worked any amount of games? Why would they join your new association when you'd almost certainly have no games to assign?

You only have a couple of realistic options. Talk with the assignor, claim some sort of miscommunication and getting off on the wrong foot, and that you'd like to start over again. The other option is expanding where you're willing to work and work in another area. The other option is to be "right" and not work any games.

The option to start a new association would only be feasible if you were able to get a decent amount of officials to cross over to your new board. And unless there are some other outside factors, this probably won't happen. Otherwise, your transferable skills and comparable experiences aren't going to mean jack **** to anyone.

Adam Wed May 29, 2013 07:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895957)
If you really do want to work in this business, find some humility, realize that you are not smarter than everyone else in the room, admit when you are wrong and learn from those you can learn from. You're currently on the opposite road on all of these.

Best advice of the thread, and it applies to the real world, too.

Or, you can continue to be right.

Trying to start your own association at this point will be a swift career-ender. Frankly, unless you develop some humility, expanding your territory to a new association will result in the same situation at some point.

Rich Wed May 29, 2013 08:41pm

There's nothing worse than a new guy who thinks he knows it all and that he's entitled to something in return for his initial investment.

I've assigned plenty in my 25+ years officiating. Among assignors the worst kind of official to deal with is the high-maintenance one.

LIUmp Wed May 29, 2013 09:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 895910)
Okay, so if I understand you correctly:
1. You are assigned games and you accept them with the caveat that you would do research to verify coverage (or the lack thereof).
2. Some significant amount of time (not clear from your post) goes by before you are called by a coach to find out if you're coming, and you tell him No.
3. You contact the assignor telling him you won't do the games, so he tells you he's taking you off his list.
4. THEN you decide to call to check on your coverage??



So now you're blaming the assignor? Sounds to me like you didn't do your due diligence when you told your assignor that you were going to check on your coverage. If I were the assignor and you told me that, I would have expected a follow-up response within a day or two to let me know what you found out. Instead, you never got back to him until the day of the games; of course he's going to be pissed off. He probably assumed you checked and everything was okay.

I really can't offer you a solution that's going to get you onto the ball field to umpire games. You pursue suing these folks, they're never going to want your services, regardless of how the suit plays out.

This.

You didn't handle it well, or professionally. If you knew the games were coming, you should have done your homework. Now, you left your assignor out to dry. What would have happened if the coach didn't call to verify with you? You wouldn't have bothered?

Rich Wed May 29, 2013 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIUmp (Post 895987)
This.

You didn't handle it well, or professionally. If you knew the games were coming, you should have done your homework. Now, you left your assignor out to dry. What would have happened if the coach didn't call to verify with you? You wouldn't have bothered?

Most of us officiate as independent contractors. As such, I never assume others will take the responsibility to protect my interests. It's why I've had NASO coverage for a long as I can remember and I also have a personal umbrella policy.

Seems the thread has pretty much run its course, but I'll leave it open as long as everyone remains civil.

chapmaja Wed May 29, 2013 11:03pm

From an assignor's position
 
I am making my comment from the assignor's point of view, since I do assign another sport (non-softball), for a HS league in my area.

The assignments had been accepted, and he heard no additional word from you stating an issue. The DAY OF THE GAME, you were called and then you notified them you were not doing the game.

While you may have a legit basis for not doing the game, the fact you accepted and declined the day of the game, without a reasonable reason does two things. One, if causes a problem for the assignor, who now has to scramble to get a replacement. Second, it may cause a problem for the teams if a) no replacement is found or b) they have already processed payment for you. When you piss off the assignor and the teams, things generally don't go well.

Now, from an assignors position. I have had officials fail to show up for agreed upon games previously. One of them is still working for me, while another is no longer on my list. The one who is still working for me has a long history of working well as an official. The other was removed after he missed a meet, which was added to turning back two assignments for the fall season, and missing a contest I was supposed to work with him.

I think filing a lawsuit over this would be wrong. You need to get the liability issues straightened out, get liability insurance to cover you for games outside this organization, and attempted to repair a fractured relationship with the assignor and teams.


Filing a lawsuit will only accomplish one thing. It will end any potential chance you have of working games for this assignor ever again. I know when officials complain about not getting assignments from me, they are moved farther down the list for available contests. If any filed lawsuits, they would be off my list in a heartbeat. AS the assignor it is my job to put the officials who I feel are best suited to work these contests on these contests. If you show you are unwilling to work with me, and choose to file a lawsuit, you have proven to me you are not willing to be a team player, and I only want team players working for me.

Manny A Thu May 30, 2013 07:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornToReferee (Post 895941)
The issue of other insurance wasn't know over that time span.

Hmph. For someone who is much more concerned with adequate insurance coverage and potential litigation, I would have expected you to be able to teach a class on the subject at umpire clinics.

I think it speaks volumes that there isn't anyone here that feels you did no wrong. I'm not suggesting that the assignor was completely in the right here. But there is a reasonable expectation that the scheduling of umpires for games is a shared responsibility. The assignor is responsible for making the assignments, and the umpires are responsible for knowing they are fully qualified and capable of taking those assignments. You failed in making sure you were qualified--at least in your mind when it comes to insurance--and dropped the ball on giving the assignor a proper heads up. And now you want to sue. You're not going to get any sympathy here from people who have been on both sides of the fence for much longer than you.

robbie Thu May 30, 2013 09:05am

I would not hire you either.

There were 2 "should I sue?' comments and 1 "grevience" comment.

Sorry - next..........................

Moosie74 Thu May 30, 2013 09:30am

I can understand that you feel the need to have insurance coverage and that's been rehashed here over and over so I'm not going to address that issue.

If you're unsure about taking a game for whatever reason you need to tell the assigner that you're not available for these games, please let me know about games next week or whatever their assigning period is.

This buys you a few days to do your research. As a rookie softball umpire you may feel like there's a chance something will happen that you will be sued for, for myself as a 20-year official, I quit worrying about that a long time ago knowing the odds are in my favor there won't be an issue.

When you wish to officiate, you're at the mercy of the assigner who controls the available work. S/he is your entry to doing the games and you need to respect that situation.

It's really not fair to the rest of your officials to take a game and then not show for it, it makes everyone look bad. If I'm in your association and know that you've taken a game and I'm sitting at home watching the grass grow because there are no other unassigned games and I decide to go down to the local park and find that the only umpire assigned to the game or there's now a single umpire because someone failed to show, I'm not going to be impressed with you especially if there is an umpire and they say, oh, Jim was supposed to be here, don't know where he is....not ok.

REFANDUMP Thu May 30, 2013 10:18am

There's a major issue which I haven't seen addressed here. For sake of simplicity, let's assume the organization you normally umpire for is ABC. Is this tournament sanctioned by organization DEF or is it totally unsanctioned ?? If it's sanctioned by organization DEF, why wouldn't you have just paid the fees and umpired ??? If it's totally unsanctioned, I can understand your concerns about working, however I would have still worked after giving my word to the assignor. I also would have however, made sure the assignors superiors were made known that he was assigning games for unsanctioned tournaments. I don't think this would have gone over well for the superiors in organization ABC.

If you're not willing to apologize, I would start checking to see if there are any youth baseball organizations that need umpires, or be willing to jump in your car to work softball games. You don't have any other options that I see.

Floyd P Thu May 30, 2013 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895918)
Get Justice? Hmmmm.



My suggestion to go "over their head" was because you said they are assigning unsanctioned events under the moniker of some National organization... if they are doing to --- the organization is not going to like that. Assuming what you've told us is true, what they are doing is wrong, and it needs to be stopped.

Absolutely... if its an organized league or games being played then SOMEONE has to be sanctioning it, I find it really hard to believe that any field owner would allow teams to be playing on their field without some type of insurance, with that being said most cities/schools only recognize National associtions with insurances and CERTIFIED officials working the games.

Somethings fishy here and we're not on the lake

KJUmp Thu May 30, 2013 10:43pm

If you had paid the $110 annual fee to NASO, which probably better than 90% of the members who post her regularly belong to, you would have had absolutely no insurance/liability concerns, worked your assigned games, been well on your way to building a schedule with this particular assigner, and had a tax deduction to boot.

NASO membership is the best deal going for any serious sports official. I don't have worry about 'squat' regarding insurance etc. when I'm on my way to any softball or basketball assignment, meeting, or camp no matter what sanctioning body is involved.

Just my two cents.

Multiple Sports Thu May 30, 2013 11:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 896099)
If you had paid the $110 annual fee to NASO, which probably better than 90% of the members who post her regularly belong to, you would have had absolutely no insurance/liability concerns, worked your assigned games, been well on your way to building a schedule with this particular assigner, and had a tax deduction to boot.

NASO membership is the best deal going for any serious sports official. I don't have worry about 'squat' regarding insurance etc. when I'm on my way to any softball or basketball assignment, meeting, or camp no matter what sanctioning body is involved.

Just my two cents.

Great summarization of how most of us feel......can't be said any better!!!!!

REFANDUMP Fri May 31, 2013 10:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 896099)
If you had paid the $110 annual fee to NASO, which probably better than 90% of the members who post her regularly belong to, you would have had absolutely no insurance/liability concerns, worked your assigned games, been well on your way to building a schedule with this particular assigner, and had a tax deduction to boot.

NASO membership is the best deal going for any serious sports official. I don't have worry about 'squat' regarding insurance etc. when I'm on my way to any softball or basketball assignment, meeting, or camp no matter what sanctioning body is involved.

Just my two cents.

Since I'm not a NASO member, I don't know the answer to this question, which I don't know has been answered throughout this whole thread. If this tournament was totally unsanctioned, would NASO insurance have covered any problems if an umpire was working ???

MD Longhorn Fri May 31, 2013 10:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP (Post 896161)
Since I'm not a NASO member, I don't know the answer to this question, which I don't know has been answered throughout this whole thread. If this tournament was totally unsanctioned, would NASO insurance have covered any problems if an umpire was working ???

Any injury problems? Yes.

Any problems arising from arrogant rookie being a thorn in an assignor's side? Sadly, no.

Manny A Fri May 31, 2013 11:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 896162)
Any injury problems? Yes.

Any problems arising from arrogant rookie being a thorn in an assignor's side? Sadly, no.

Just can't let it go, huh Mike? :p

MD Longhorn Fri May 31, 2013 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 896171)
Just can't let it go, huh Mike? :p

I let it go for almost 48 hours! But yeah, that one was too easy.

KJUmp Fri May 31, 2013 11:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP (Post 896161)
Since I'm not a NASO member, I don't know the answer to this question, which I don't know has been answered throughout this whole thread. If this tournament was totally unsanctioned, would NASO insurance have covered any problems if an umpire was working ???

Yes, as long as the tournament was being run by a recognized sports organization, league, or association... (ie: not a pick-up game). Traveling to the game, working the game, traveling home from the game., and the coverage goes far beyond injury. Think of a reason(s) you could be sued as an official, and NASO insurance covers you.

REFANDUMP Fri May 31, 2013 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 896182)
Yes, as long as the tournament was being run by a recognized sports organization, league, or association... (ie: not a pick-up game). Traveling to the game, working the game, traveling home from the game., and the coverage goes far beyond injury. Think of a reason(s) you could be sued as an official, and NASO insurance covers you.

Thank You.


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