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-   -   3rd strike dropped mechanic ? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/95114-3rd-strike-dropped-mechanic.html)

chuck chopper Thu May 23, 2013 09:12pm
3rd strike dropped mechanic ?
 
Twice now while watching the NCAA regionals I have seen the PU give a safe call (both arms out). Am I seeing an approved mechanic or just a personal thing for that particular ump ?

RKBUmp Thu May 23, 2013 09:27pm
I think it was last year the NCAA added the safe call mechanic to the dropped third strike.

IRISHMAFIA Thu May 23, 2013 10:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 895308)
I think it was last year the NCAA added the safe call mechanic to the dropped third strike.
When I made that comment last year I was told that it was not. Then again, it shouldn't be.

KJUmp Fri May 24, 2013 04:31am
Approved signal and mechanic for the PU. It was added the NCAA manual for the 2012 season.

To be used in D3K situations where.....

"If the pitch was judged 'not caught' but it is not obvious that the catcher did not catch the pitch or there is any confusion among the immediate participants, the plate umpire after giving the standard 'strike signal' shall immediately give a standard 'safe' signal and verbally announce 'No Catch' to indicate that the pitch was not caught."

EsqUmp Fri May 24, 2013 06:40am
It is a good mechanic that could help prevent someone from arguing, "Your arm was in the air. You called her out." A product of having a strike and out signal being the same.

I recommend going one step forward. I think that a toned down bow & arrow (not a sell, but just a simple signal) followed by no catch is even better. Then you really can prevent the appearance of calling someone out.

This happened in a regional game, where the defense left the field and a run scored. It was the deciding run.

Granted, the umpire didn't use the correct signals.

IRISHMAFIA Fri May 24, 2013 07:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 895329)
It is a good mechanic that could help prevent someone from arguing, "Your arm was in the air. You called her out." A product of having a strike and out signal being the same.
No it doesn't. It is a strike, call it as strike and the proper mechanic is an arm in the air.

Quote:
I recommend going one step forward. I think that a toned down bow & arrow (not a sell, but just a simple signal) followed by no catch is even better. Then you really can prevent the appearance of calling someone out.
I'll go a step further, get rid of the theatrics and just call the strike. If out, sure go ahead an call the batter out. Why do people feel the need to "sell" a called third strike? I just don't see the need for it.

Since coming over from baseball, have never used anything other than the standing mechanic and use an inflection of the call as an indicator of it's importance. Well, I'm lying. In a SP fundraiser I took a called third strike halfway to 3B on this jackass who made it his part-time job to tell everyone how weak the game of softball was, that real men play baseball. His team loved it, told him to shut up and sit down, it wasn't the umpire's fault he didn't swing the bat. :cool:

Quote:
This happened in a regional game, where the defense left the field and a run scored. It was the deciding run.

Granted, the umpire didn't use the correct signals.
So, of course, the umpire needs to take up the slack of poor coaching.

Maybe the next move is to create an umpire-to-umpire signal of when the DTS possibility exists. :rolleyes: Or, for that matter, let's have the PU give a signal for all to see, that way there is no excuse for the teams to not be aware of the situation. :(

MD Longhorn Fri May 24, 2013 07:57am
I know this is not politically (or mechanically) correct in the softball world...

But this whole nonsense would be fixed if we could get over our phobia of calling the batter out when they are in fact out. After all, we call them out in EVERY other situation where they are out... why the abhorence of calling them out after strike three. (And, of course ... NOT calling them out when the pitch is uncaught).

"Strike Three! Batter's Out!"

seems more communicative of our call than ...

"Strike!" - Silence... (Now guess the rest!)

And no ... I DO NOT do this - but I posit that if this were the mechanic, it would be better for everyone, ourselves included.

Manny A Fri May 24, 2013 08:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895350)
I know this is not politically (or mechanically) correct in the softball world...

But this whole nonsense would be fixed if we could get over our phobia of calling the batter out when they are in fact out. After all, we call them out in EVERY other situation where they are out... why the abhorence of calling them out after strike three. (And, of course ... NOT calling them out when the pitch is uncaught).

"Strike Three! Batter's Out!"

seems more communicative of our call than ...

"Strike!" - Silence... (Now guess the rest!)

And no ... I DO NOT do this - but I posit that if this were the mechanic, it would be better for everyone, ourselves included.
From baseball clinics, I was taught umpires don't use the "Batter's Out" mechanic because there is a small but real chance it would be erroneously applied when the batter is not out on an U3K. Better to have just one mechanic of "Strike Three" for all called third strikes.

Also, the overwhelming majority of U3Ks occur when the batter swings at a bad pitch. Since we don't verbalize "Strike" or "Strike Three" on a swing, it would be strange to call "Batter's Out" when he/she can't advance to first, and stay silent when he/she can.

MD Longhorn Fri May 24, 2013 08:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 895352)
From baseball clinics, I was taught umpires don't use the "Batter's Out" mechanic because there is a small but real chance it would be erroneously applied when the batter is not out on an U3K. Better to have just one mechanic of "Strike Three" for all called third strikes.

Also, the overwhelming majority of U3Ks occur when the batter swings at a bad pitch. Since we don't verbalize "Strike" or "Strike Three" on a swing, it would be strange to call "Batter's Out" when he/she can't advance to first, and stay silent when he/she can.
Strange because we don't do it... but not strange in comparison to every other out call we make. I've never understood the reluctance (in both baseball and softball) to call a player out when they are out. After all, it's our job to create clarity when things are not clear regarding whether we've ruled a player out or not. On a borderline D3K - why the silence?

KJUmp Fri May 24, 2013 11:43am
MD...it's way too logical, which is probably why the BB&FP gods don't have us do it.:rolleyes:

EsqUmp Fri May 24, 2013 04:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 895336)
No it doesn't. It is a strike, call it as strike and the proper mechanic is an arm in the air.



I'll go a step further, get rid of the theatrics and just call the strike. If out, sure go ahead an call the batter out. Why do people feel the need to "sell" a called third strike? I just don't see the need for it.

Since coming over from baseball, have never used anything other than the standing mechanic and use an inflection of the call as an indicator of it's importance. Well, I'm lying. In a SP fundraiser I took a called third strike halfway to 3B on this jackass who made it his part-time job to tell everyone how weak the game of softball was, that real men play baseball. His team loved it, told him to shut up and sit down, it wasn't the umpire's fault he didn't swing the bat. :cool:



So, of course, the umpire needs to take up the slack of poor coaching.

Maybe the next move is to create an umpire-to-umpire signal of when the DTS possibility exists. :rolleyes: Or, for that matter, let's have the PU give a signal for all to see, that way there is no excuse for the teams to not be aware of the situation. :(
It prevents problems. The fact that a strike and an out are signaled the same leads to problems. If I can use a signal/mechanic to prevent a problem, then it is worth using. It has nothing at all to do with the coaches. It has to do with me, as an umpire, communicating what happened. That is what signals are for, after all.

UmpireErnie Fri May 24, 2013 04:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 895326)
"If the pitch was judged 'not caught' but it is not obvious that the catcher did not catch the pitch or there is any confusion among the immediate participants, the plate umpire after giving the standard 'strike signal' shall immediately give a standard 'safe' signal and verbally announce 'No Catch' to indicate that the pitch was not caught."
Based on how the NCAA mechanic is written it is discretionary for the PU to make this signal when necessary to communicate his/her judgement on whether or not the pitch was legally caught.

In ASA/NFHS mechanics..we simply say strike (or say nothing while signalling strike for a swing) then the players have to decide if the ball was caught or not. Sometimes U3K is pretty obvious other times it is a close call as to whether or not the ball was caught on the fly or short hopped into F2s glove. IMO there should be some way for us to communicate what our call is in these situations without the BR having to try for 1B or F2 to have to throw to 1B "just in case".

KJUmp Fri May 24, 2013 06:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpireErnie (Post 895430)
Based on how the NCAA mechanic is written it is discretionary for the PU to make this signal when necessary to communicate his/her judgement on whether or not the pitch was legally caught.
It's not discretionary.
If it was not obvious to the "immediate participants" the correct mechanic is for the PU to use the signal. Period.

That pretty much means any D3K where you don't see the ball scooting to the backstop or rolling around plain as day in the area around home plate.

This is what I was told by an evaluator when I used my discretion and decided not to use the mechanic in D3K sitch.

IRISHMAFIA Fri May 24, 2013 10:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 895428)
It prevents problems. The fact that a strike and an out are signaled the same leads to problems. If I can use a signal/mechanic to prevent a problem, then it is worth using. It has nothing at all to do with the coaches. It has to do with me, as an umpire, communicating what happened. That is what signals are for, after all.
Yet it hasn't been a problem since 1880 when this rule was instituted in baseball in 1880 until some idiot catcher did not earn his overpaid keep one day and all of a sudden the world is coming to an end if the umpires don't come up with some type of mechanic that provides no additional help other than to provide the umpire absolution.

Do you communicate when a player fails to keep contact with the base when a fly ball is caught? Do you communicate when the runner misses a base? Do you communicate when you know the wrong batter is in the box?

And the two people for whom it is meant are the only two that are in no position to see the signal and probably are no going to hear a "safe" or "no catch" until it is too late to do anything not already in motion.

IMO, it is totally unnecessary and was created as nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction based on a whining player.

UmpireErnie Sat May 25, 2013 04:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 895438)
It's not discretionary.
If it was not obvious to the "immediate participants" the correct mechanic is for the PU to use the signal. Period.

That pretty much means any D3K where you don't see the ball scooting to the backstop or rolling around plain as day in the area around home plate.

This is what I was told by an evaluator when I used my discretion and decided not to use the mechanic in D3K sitch.
I see. IMO a pitch that everyone in the park can see bounce off the ground into F2s glove is an obvious U3K but of course if that's what they want so be it. Thanks for the info..no NCAA ball for us here so I have to live vicariously through you! :)

EsqUmp Sat May 25, 2013 08:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 895442)
And the two people for whom it is meant are the only two that are in no position to see the signal and probably are no going to hear a "safe" or "no catch" until it is too late to do anything not already in motion.

IMO, it is totally unnecessary and was created as nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction based on a whining player.
Why the hell wouldn't they hear me? If they can hear me say "strike" and "ball" they can certainly hear me say "no catch." Your comment is as absurd as it is inaccurate.

IRISHMAFIA Sat May 25, 2013 09:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 895462)
Why the hell wouldn't they hear me? If they can hear me say "strike" and "ball" they can certainly hear me say "no catch." Your comment is as absurd as it is inaccurate.
Probably for the same reason people don't hear an umpire call dead ball during a play, too loud an environment. But, of course, I'm sure there in no extraneous noise on a third strike call when you are working.

Tell you what, you go ahead and do what you want to do. I'll umpire.

EsqUmp Sat May 25, 2013 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 895464)
Probably for the same reason people don't hear an umpire call dead ball during a play, too loud an environment. But, of course, I'm sure there in no extraneous noise on a third strike call when you are working.

Tell you what, you go ahead and do what you want to do. I'll umpire.
So let's abandon any signal, mechanic or call that someone may not hear or see. Makes sense. Guess I can stop calling the infield fly.

But go ahead and keep signaling obvious nonsense that everyone can see for themselves. Keep pumping your fist up in the air on obvious caught fly balls. Someone may think she dropped it if you didn't signal the out :rolleyes: And make sure you rotate your wrist in the proper direction for that home run that cleared the fence by 50 feet. Someone may think the ball rolled under the fence :rolleyes:

UmpireErnie Sat May 25, 2013 03:39pm
All right now. May have to give both of you a team warning! :rolleyes:

grounder Sun May 26, 2013 08:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpireErnie (Post 895496)
All right now. May have to give both of you a team warning! :rolleyes:
lol..good one ernie...play nice, boys!

Andy Mon May 27, 2013 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 895442)
...IMO, it is totally unnecessary and was created as nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction based on a whining <strike>player</strike> Coach.
Fixed it for ya....this is NCAA ball we're talking about, remember? :)

IRISHMAFIA Mon May 27, 2013 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 895645)
Fixed it for ya....this is NCAA ball we're talking about, remember? :)
Yeah, but the whole issue started in MLB where it is just as weak, IMO.


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