Enter the Marching Band
 

I'm glad to see that ESPN shows so much footage of illegal conduct in the dugout, as the players drum away on buckets with balls. ESPN "announcers" love it and the umpires do nothing. No wonder I have to hear this every weekend and then hear, "We do it every game. Everyone does it on tv." Maybe we can get a tuba player in the dugout for the next game.

I'm guessing your watching Penn? Is there an NCAA rule against making noise in the dugout? Can't think of one in ASA or NFHS..

NCAA bans artificial noise makers and that applies to everyone in the venue with the exception of the band and even they are restricted as to when they can or cannot play.

And if there were a problem the NCAA rep would have instructed the teams and umpires.

An umpire who even mentions it to the coach sans direction is probably working their last NCAA post season game

There, fixed it for you!

Arizona wins on unearned run in bottom of 8th

I guess I wont watch my recording. ;) :p :p :D :D

If you were recording off ESPN, it doesn't make a difference, they did not show the 8th inning

I must have missed it. It wasn't broke, so nothing to be fixed.

ncaa rule
 

Does some one want to state the actual rule pertaining to banging balls on the dugout?

If I get home before you do, ill find it and post it.
I. Don't believe it is as absolutevas some think.

What could be more absolute than this:

13.4.2 No player or coach shall use equipment in any way other than what
is intended by the manufacturer (for example, banging bats and balls in a
dugout).
EFFECT—When brought to the attention of the umpire by the opposing
coach, the umpire shall issue a warning to the offending head
coach. Any subsequent violation shall result in the abused
equipment being removed from the game (not returned to the
dugout).

I'm not sure how someone could call himself a college umpire and not know a rule as simple as this. :rolleyes:

Pay attention to this part.

If no one complains you don't do anything.

Well, that's not true. An umpire can direct that they stop. The difference is that you issue an official warning if it is brought to your attention by the opposing team. Which brings up another point: most umpires aren't properly documenting the warning and putting it into post-game reports where required.

Well, yes it is. It says the effect of the rule is that when brought to your attention by the opposing coach. . .

IOW - you only react if it's brought to your attention. If it didn't have that statement then you could react on your own. But it does have that statement.

You simply are not comprehending the rule correctly. Nothing prohibits an umpire for addressing the issue on his own. The only difference is if the opposing team brings it to the umpire's attention first, then there is a warning and a penalty for a repeated act. But if you think that an umpire can't tell them to end the concert, you're dead wrong.

I'm with Ives, on this.
I don't care if they are banging balls on buckets.
In fact, I groove on it.

I have never had a coach complain

As far as the rule itself, I don't think it allows us to arbitrarily direct s team to stop.

I'm with Ives, on this.
I don't care if they are banging balls on buckets.
In fact, I groove on it.

I have never had a coach complain

As far as the rule itself, I don't think it allows us to arbitrarily direct s team to stop.

Why would an umpire want to address it on his own?
Address what?

Hilarious, just ****ing hilarious.

Re-read the rule:

13.4.2 No player or coach shall use equipment in any way other than what is intended by the manufacturer (for example, banging bats and balls in a dugout). EFFECT—When brought to the attention of the umpire by the opposing coach, the umpire shall issue a warning to the offending head coach. Any subsequent violation shall result in the abused equipment being removed from the game (not returned to the dugout).

No ejection, no outs, no forfeit, they take away the equipment!!!

This is about the equipment, not making noise or unsportsmanlike conduct. There is no penalty to a player or coach. Could you imagine the chaos if the umpire walks by a dugout and see player using her glove as a seat cushion, or a doning a "rally cap"?

The umpire could end the concert, but it would likely be the last concert the umpire ended at the college level, from what I gather. Besides, if they wanted umpires to address it directly, why have the wording about the coach bringing it to the umpire's attention?

Yeah, the umpire would come into the dugout and take away their balls!!

And for what, to show that you are a NCAA-clone?

Sounds like everyone that umpires for that particular organization has to do so scared. Funny that for all the coach ejections I can find on YouTube for baseball, I see none for NCAA Softball -- do coach ejections ever happen?

If a tree falls in the woods....

Or maybe it is just because softball umpires and coaches don't think every game is the championship game. :D

There is also a greater mutual respect between coaches and umpires. Coaches also know that their institutions aren't paying them to get ejected. People often lose sight of the fact that most institutions think that it reflects poorly on them when someone on their payroll acts so foolishly, especially in front of a crowd, that they get thrown out.

One thing I can say for certain is that there was at least one DI coach ejected this year ;)

the devils advocate

speaking ASA. couldnt an umpire consider the banging unsportsmanlike conduct much like negative cheering and invoke rule 10 - 1 power and duties? " the plate umpire shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifaclly covered in these rules"

Looks like you are the only official in the country able to comprehend this rule "correctly" then.

I'll use this "comprehension" for other instances as well. Next time I notice a batting out of order, unreported substitution, or even a runner missing a bag, I'll simply rule on it without being prompted by the opposing team.

EsqUmp - Does the term "protestable situation" mean anything to you?

I've seen some behaviors on televised games where the umpires simply let a coach run amok, too, but I'm sure I could find similar situations in baseball games.

Love internet umpires who aren't really umpires that read 40% of a rule and then rail on how the real umpires must not be real umpires for not knowing a simple rule...

Did you even read the RED section I bolded? Did you see an opposing coach bring it up? Of course not - it's accepted behavior. The umpires are NOT to initiate this conversation on their own... and no coach is ever going to bring this up.

You related to Big John on the football board? He does the same thing - the reading part of a rule thing and going crazy inappropriately...

I have too and it's sad.

I've also seen coaches in a baseball game get 3 to 4 minutes of his "money's worth" post-ejection. Is there a rule regarding the time a coach has to leave in baseball?

One of the biggest difference I see between baseball and softball is the demeanor of the participants. Baseball players and coaches are primadonnas - if the umpire offends them in any way, they must have a conniption fit that won't stop until the umpire has had enough.

Softball players might say ONE word after a bad call, or give a look after a suspect ball-strike call. Coaches (generally) will come out to DISCUSS things, but you see FAR less dirt kicking idiocy in softball than you do in baseball.

THIS is the reason for less ejections.

I suppose you could.:rolleyes:

But I would disagree that it it is unsportsmanlike.
I would also have to ask how this equates with "negative" cheering.

And if they were drumming on buckets with, say, their water bottles or their street shoes or even drumsticks that they snuck in their bat bags, what's the difference? Is there an NCAA rule that prohibits this?

What is the purpose of rule 13.4.2 anyway? Is it to limit the noise factor out of the dugout? Or is it to minimize the possibility of softball equipment getting damaged during the game? I have a hard time believing it's the former, because I've heard girls chant and yell and make all sorts of noise out of the dugouts, and, quite frankly, I've always thought that was the norm in softball.

Or are we to limit this kind of noise using 5.11 on "Artificial Noisemakers"? What defines an artificial noisemaker anyway?

If someone's blowing a referee whistle, or blasting a tuba during a windup, etc - someone's going to say something and then we're going to address it. Chanting, pounding, screaming ... all normal.

It's kind of amazing how much fun those girls are having in the dugouts before during and after the games!

How, she was cheering for her team? If you are going to do that, maybe we should use the same rule and remove the player's shoes after a warning for misuse by stomping them on the dugout floor in unison to create the rhythm for a cheer.

its just a question pal..take it easy with the silly comparisons

Honestly ... I didn't find the comparison that silly, and don't find his outside the box scenario any differently than yours.

As to 10-1 ... if you're willing to trot it out to cover this, I have to worry what else you're using it for. In 21 years, I've used it once ... a car with no driver got somehow put in gear and rolled over the RF fence (and eventually RF before someone caught up with it) while a ball was in play, scaring the crapola out of a bunch of 12 year olds.

And that's about how far outside the box a situation needs to be for you to use that rule.

Seriously, you don't want to open the door of saying that softball chanting and other forms of noise-making are unsporting. Unless the chants are blatantly directed at the opposing team's skill level, how are you going to regulate them? Are you going to limit the volume level? Are you going to only allow them between pitches and stop them the moment the pitcher looks in for the sign?

When I moved from umpiring baseball to softball, dugout noise was something that took me some getting used to. I soon realized that it was extremely rare that the opposing coach would complain, so I don't bother at all. I certainly wouldn't invoke any kind of unsporting determination to put a stop to it.

Didn't Alabama HC get ran at Supers last year? And I think there was one that got tossed during controversy over an INT or OBS play but I can't remember what school..

I seem to remember from my baseball days many moons ago that there was a school of thought in that world that getting thrown out of a game will fire up the team. Fortunately softball types don't appear to have attended this school!:cool:

thank you manny for the reasonable answer...and yes mdlonghorn it was a silly comparison with belittling intent and not informative at all and there is no need to worry about how i use the rule because i dont think i ever have although i know its there. i prefaced the question as being the devil's advocate, somewhat tongue in cheek...geez

And it was only an answer, bubba. If you didn't want an answer, you shouldn't ask a question.

Good buddy of mine who is also the head of the local basketball officials association tells me that NFHS basketball rules specifically prohibit artificial noise makers being used by teams and/or fans.

Then comes the state tournament.. the main sponsor (a statewide bank) hands out inflatable "thunder sticks" to all the fans!

well, i would have appreciated a less patronizing answer but following your previous posts to others i shouldnt have expected anything more than that. i always respect your opinions and interpretations as the final word but there really is no need to be demeaning......its no big deal. lets move on

Had a JV game where the fan's from one team were saying "swing!" when other team was batting. Other than that they were simply cheering on their DDs who were losing badly.

Coach for the team who's batter were being told "swing!" by the fans wanted me to tell them they had to stop. She was kinda surprised when I told her no. Then she wanted to know if she could tell them. Told her I could not stop her but I doubted that her talking to them would be a good idea.

Sorry but if you can't play while there is noise going on you have bigger challenges than the noise!

Maybe someone should tell that to Sergio Garcia. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

WOW:eek:

While I agree with you, there's something to be said about fans who do that, especially at a JV game. Frankly, if I were the coach of the team whose fans were being this obnoxious, I would have gone into the stands and told them to knock off the childish crap.

I don't know about you guys, but the host team is supposed to have an administrator present at all our HS games (JV and V) who should be handling stuff like that.


Having said that, I think back to the days when I was a kid and if you didn't hear,
"heybattanobattaheybattanobatta.....SWING",
you wern't playing ball....

For a much more lengthy and sometimes entertaining discussion on this topic....

Calling pitches - by the parents?

ok...the 10-1 thing didnt fly with you.....im not looking for a peeing match but i think rule supplement 49-f should eliminate the banging on the buckets.

"the use of artificial noisemakers during championship play is prohibited"

what do you think of that one?

At last year's gold national, held in OKC, on the grounds of ASA HOF Stadium, a team calling themselves "LA Voodoo" included a player with drum sticks and a "drum set" comprised of buckets (ok, maybe it was one of two buckets, not an entire "set"). While they were at bat, she played the beat and the team sang song/chants. This was well within ear shot of 3 out of 5 of the Deputy Directors of Umpires. Nary a word was said. You knew what field they were on anytime they played.

I believe that in and of itself tell you everything you will need to know.

Lengthy - agreed
sometimes entertaining - agreed

Thanks for gi:Dving me a chuckle and helping me waste a morning.

Don't be silly :rolleyes: :D

Of course, the artificial noisemaker could be applied to just about anything you want other than vocals.

The entire artificial noise issue rises from using items to make loud or disturbing sounds for the purpose of distracting the opponent or preventing them from communicating and executing plays on the field.

If as a coach you came to me as an umpire and told me he wants to protest the banging ball or buckets, I'm going to allow him to go ahead and protest. I am then going to call my buddy Steve to inform said coach of the free trip he just won :D

OK, I wasn't going to bring it up, but sometime in the last couple months (can't remember exactly when or where - but I do remember the team was dressed in teal, white and black uniforms), the team had a similar situation except they had a few talented girls playing. I'm thinking they must have been part on the marching band during football season.

I enjoyed the hell out of it.

so i am clear, in summary, ASA teams can play any type of musical instruments as loudly as they want, bang on anything they want with anything they want , including sticks and buckets or balls and buckets while they are in the dugout as long as they dont chant negatively? i am to ignore rule supplement 49e (about equipment being used for other than its original design) and 49f ( no artificial noisemakers) because those two supplements do not pertain to this.

I think you've pointed out that artificial noisemakers are prohibited in championship play, based on RS 49 (and I don't have an ASA rule book handy to check). The same prohibition is listed in the ASA Code.

So if you were to not ignore it and put a stop to it, I suppose you would be doing something in line with what is written. But it sounds to me--and as others have alluded--that you would be in the minority here.

thanks manny..i agree with your assessment

My opinion is that you are making more out of this than was ever intended by those rules supplements in ASA. Yes, what you state does meet the letter of the wording, but I believe you are missing the intent.

No, not any type of musical instrument; the "artificial noisemaker" is to stop air horns, trumpets, amplified music, actual drums, even the redneck jugs with pebbles or coins. But, if something has a softball purpose to be in the dugout, unless they are damaging something or overly distracting, leave it alone!!

It has been my experience when one team complained, and umpires stopped the use of ANYTHING, it then became louder than it was before. Yelling, shrieking, jumping on the benches, whatever.

As to the NCAA rule, I have been told by several conference coordinators and (former and current) SUP members that we ARE NOT to address 13.4.2 (using equipment) UNTIL and unless brought to our attention by a complaining opponent. Conversely, and despite the same language, we ARE to address 5.11.2 (artificial noisemakers) on our own observation. Given that lack of a more specific interpretation from DA, I do as directed.

This is exactly what I have been told. It is precisely the reason I started the conversation.

It has nothing to do with my opinion of the rule or whether I like the drumming (most umpires I know absolutely hate it because they feel that it interferes with their concentration - everyone is different). This is what they asked NCAA umpires to enforce, so I have done so.

I do not like the idea of a coach having to lodge a complaint to address the topic. It causes inconsistency and leads to a "we did it yesterday and the umpires didn't say anything" (which may or may not be true) situation.

You know, any rule like this is useless without proper definition. Much like ASA should define "errant throw", maybe the NCAA should define what the mean by an artificial noisemaker. What you call an artificial noisemaker may not be what the next guy calls an artificial noisemaker.

For example, a musical instrument of any type probably should not be considered an artificial noisemaker since it is manufactured for the express purpose of making noise. And if there is an artificial noisemaker, what is a natural noisemaker?

I believe the NCAA and those following suit make far too much out of issues like this.

I think noisemakers are
- natural - human body
- artificial - other things

AFAIC, you get more inconsistency if umpires are allowed to address this on their own volition without a coach's request. You may have put a stop to it yesterday in your game because the noise bothered you, but I don't do anything about it today because I'm not phased by it.

So to me, it doesn't matter whether or not the rule requires the opposing coach to lodge a complaint. You're still going to get some umpires who will put a stop to it right away, and others who won't give a flip.