Illegal pitch or no pitch.
 

I was working a JV game a couple years ago and had this situation. I am the plate umpire.

The pitcher begins her pitching motion, and as she steps forward she stumbles, as a result of the stumble, she never releases the pitch.

At the same time she is in her pitching motion and would have normally released the pitch, the runner at second is called out by my BU for leaving base before the pitch is released.

We come together and try to determine when she left the base and how it compared with the time the pitch would have been released, had the pitch been released.

We really could not come to a decision so we ruled it no pitch, but did not declare the runner out.

What should the call be.

1) Illegal pitch, because she never released the pitch.

2) No pitch, the runner is out for leaving the base early.

3) The way we handled it. Basically a simultaneous violation by the pitcher and by the runner.

Yuck.

Illegal pitch. Easy. Every day and twice on Sunday.

You get two-fers on Sunday? :eek: Damn!!! ;)

As I read the OP (see bold), the runner left while the pitcher was in her motion,
therefore before release and before the stumble,
therefore before the pitching violation.

If so, why wouldn't the "leave early" take precedence?

Perhaps you're reading it differently than me... You only bolded part of it ... the unbolded is where I got what I got...

"At the same time she is in her pitching motion and would have normally released the pitch, the runner at second is called out by my BU for leaving base before the pitch is released. "

I took this to mean that at the time the pitcher would have normally released the pitch, the runner ran. IOW, had the pitch been made when it was supposed to, the runner would have been legal.

I'll take a crack at this...

For the same reason the pitcher cannot retouch hands after separating. The runners base their timing on the pitcher's actions.

Granted, no matter what the pitchers do (legally) in their mechanics (and there are some strange variations), the runner can't break until release; however, we have to judge that whatever caused the pitcher to stumble was enough to screw up the runner's timing.

JMO, but unless it's blatantly obvious that the runner left her base well before the pitcher aborted her delivery, I'm giving the runner the benefit of the doubt here. Since the two of you couldn't figure out what came first, then the IP violation should prevail.

Absolutely - I agree completely.

That said ... it's one or the other. The ruling of NOTHING that the OP went with is the only possible wrong answer here.

Illegal pitch = delayed dead ball.

Runner leaving early = dead ball.

Illegal pitch occurred first. Offense gets the choice of the result of the play or enforcement of the illegal pitch penalty (because not all runners safely advanced).

I assume the offense will take the penalty (ball on batter and runner gets a base).

I don't know why people keep trying to complicate these plays.

At the risk of being one of those "people" :eek:

The IP being discussed here is F1 failing to deliver the ball after separating the hands. If R1 leaves early, say after the hands separate but clearly before F1 falls to the ground without releasing the ball then didn't the offensive infraction come first? And since leaving early is immediate dead ball the IP never happens....

I believe both ASA and FED have rules clarifications or case plays which state if you have both an illegal pitch such as a pitcher double touching and a runner leaving early, you enforce both infractions.

But, agree with other posts, if the illegal pitch is what caused the runner to leave early because the pitcher never released the ball, I would not call the leaving early and only enforce the illegal pitch.

Ding, ding, ding!!!

Yes. But that's not what happened as described in the OP. The umpires couldn't figure out when the runner left the bag in relation to the failed pitch.

True... but that's the umpire's job. I think it's clear the majority here are saying that if in doubt - it's an IP. It's definitely not both or neither, and the solution the umpires on the field actually came up with is the only possible wrong solution here.

Saying they couldn't figure out what happened first is the equivalent of trying to call a tie on a play at first base. It's their JOB to decide which happened first. Sometimes you just have to umpire.

One thing to consider on this issue. This was my first game back umpiring in about 8 years, after only working a few games before.

I was just wondering how it should be handled. Now, I would have called the IP and would not be as timid as to let the BU dictate what happened. I have worked several sports with that person, and I can't say it has been much fun in any sport.

Completely agree with you. There have been times where my partner and I could not definitively decide what actually happened on a play. But we always resolve it by making a rulebook decision, not come up with a made-up compromise that essentially benefits both teams.

Cool. And we ALL love working with "that guy". I think you got your answer --- probably IP and ignore the LE; although if the LE was obviously first you'd go with that. Just not neither next time. :)

I (a stubborn person) am still not convinced that we can say the IP caused the runner to leave early, when the runner left during the pitching motion.

When the IP is not releasing the ball when it appears you are going to (as in the OP) ... then the IP DEFINITELY caused the runner to leave early ... had the pitcher not IP'd, the runner would not have LE'd.

(IF the IP was something else... say, a 24" violation, and the runner left before the pitch - you would have LE, dead ball, no IP (as the ball was dead before the violation)).

In this case, I felt it was very close to the time the pitcher would have released the pitch.

I actually had this situation in a MS game last year, as a single umpire. In that case, the pitcher stumbled and failed to release the ball. No IP was called however because as the pitcher stumbled I saw that the runner on second was about 5 strides off second base. That one was obvious that the runner left early, and that was penalized, so the IP never happened. When I made the call, the head coach just smiled at me because he knew it was the right call. Unfortunately those MS are not much better than slow pitch games on a rough poor maintained MS field.

In that case where the runner clearly left early, you should have called No Pitch well before the pitcher stumbled.

One thing I have learned to do it wait until the pitcher finishes their delivery before I come up and call anything. Last season I was the base umpire in a situation where the plate umpire called a no pitch (ball from another field came onto our field). The pitcher was in the middle of her motion and tried stopping. Unfortunately she tried stopping her motion midway through and did something to her arm. She ended up missing a few weeks of the season with an arm injury.

I agree with you on a situation like that. Had a D3 game a while back where partner in D gave a half-hearted "no-pitch" (I didn't hear him) call when he saw a beach ball fall into foul ground in deep right field... He did this as the pitcher was about to release - the pitch got by and a run scored. Who knows whether his call affected the pitcher --- but that run that we had to take off the board was the only runner to cross the plate for either side until the 14th inning. Needless to say, he bought the beer that night.

(OTOH ... on a No Pitch caused by action on the field, like a runner leaving early, it really should be called immediately - or you could open a whole different can of worms if the ball is put in play and you try to kill it then).

And that is the fault of her coaches, not the umpire doing his/her job.

EVEN WHEN I WAS PLAYING YOUTH BASEBALL IN THE LATE 50's, the pitcher was told to NEVER stop once you start. The pitchers were told to ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL complete the motion. The coaches would even screw around with them in practice to see if they would stop. If they did, everyone got a good laugh while they did a couple laps around the field.

I agree. It's too bad the pitcher hurt herself, but that's not the umpire's fault. The rule calls for an immediate "No Pitch" call the moment the runner leaves the base early.

We are not required to hesitate and let the pitcher deliver the pitch, and then sort things out afterward. Heck, by allowing the pitch, you could open the door to other preventable injuries, such as a HBP, a batted ball off the batter's leg, etc. etc.

I would think it quite rare that the time it takes for a pitcher to complete a delivery (quite short once started), would actually be long enough for the umpire to see the violation, make the call, the pitcher hear it and have time to think, "hell, I better stop my motion".

You are right, there is no requirement for you to hesitate. However, there is no requirement that you blurt this out in .xx seconds to earn a bonus for quick calls. So what if the pitch goes? No matter what happens, it is as you pointed out, a "no pitch", therefore whatever subsequent action there was is simply negated and we reset and move on from that point.

No big deal. There are way too many umpires running around the field, screaming and waving their arms acting as if play doesn't come to an immediate halt, the field will explode.

Relax. Make your calls. You don't get paid extra for being quick.