Abandonment?

oldadmark

BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

IRISHMAFIA

oldadmark wrote
BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

speaking ASA, abandonment begins when the player enters DBT.

AtlUmpSteve

oldadmark wrote
BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

Three rule sets, three different rules/interpretations.

NCAA; once she "Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout", out then. BLACK

ASA; out when she abandons AND enters dead ball territory. So has not abandoned, until she enters dead ball territory. WHITE

NFHS; runner out when she abandons OR enters dead ball territory. Your call, your judgment. GRAY

That said, in YOUR play, any runner is out when tagged off the base when the ball is live regardless what ruleset used.

Manny A

Follow-up question: I realize that BRs, by definition, are not "forced" to first base. Given that a runner who is forced to a base, touches that base, and then for whatever reason retreats back towards her previous base reinstates the force to the next base, is the same interpretation given at first on the BR?

IOW, in the OP play, could F3 simply tag first base to put the BR out?

MD Longhorn

oldadmark wrote
BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

When you say "toward home plate", do you mean beyond 1st base, or between 1st base and home plate. If the former - she's not out, she's merely returning to 1st after legally over-running it (albeit meanderingly). If the latter, see Atl's response.

And I would not have abandonment here in FED ... not yet. Abandonment is not a GOTCHA call ... it's a fall-back to use when runners truly do leave.

okla21fan

Manny A wrote
Follow-up question: I realize that BRs, by definition, are not "forced" to first base. Given that a runner who is forced to a base, touches that base, and then for whatever reason retreats back towards her previous base reinstates the force to the next base, is the same interpretation given at first on the BR?

IOW, in the OP play, could F3 simply tag first base to put the BR out?

I brought this very question up to KR and the other Natl Staff members at the FP Advanced Camp last summer, because there is really no specific rule in ASA that covers the B/R and reinstating at 1st base. KR, after much debate did agree that 'we need to clarify this and put it in the book', but any change was not purposed last fall at Council.

So based on the current rule set, there is nothing in the book that was reinstate 'the force' for the B/R at 1st base. That still only applies to other runners forced to vacate because the Batter became a B/R. The B/R still needs to be tagged while off the base or he/she enter DBT to have an out.

IRISHMAFIA

okla21fan wrote
I brought this very question up to KR and the other Natl Staff members at the FP Advanced Camp last summer, because there is really no specific rule in ASA that covers the B/R and reinstating at 1st base. KR, after much debate did agree that 'we need to clarify this and put it in the book', but any change was not purposed last fall at Council.

So based on the current rule set, there is nothing in the book that was reinstate 'the force' for the B/R at 1st base. That still only applies to other runners forced to vacate because the Batter became a B/R. The B/R still needs to be tagged while off the base or he/she enter DBT to have an out.

It is already covered in 8.8.I

The runner (noted as a BR since that player is the only one permitted to overrun the base without being placed in jeopardy) must return directly to 1B to not be out. Going past that base and/or in a direction that cannot be construed as "on route" to 1B, places the runner in jeopardy, but must be tagged off the base. Simply touching the base means nothing as there is nothing appealable for the runner simply being off the base.

Manny A

IRISHMAFIA wrote
Simply touching the base means nothing as there is nothing appealable for the runner simply being off the base.

But it wouldn't be an appeal if the "force" is reinstated on her if she heads back towards home and is between home and first, would it? Or are you suggesting that tags of the base when other runners reinstate the force are required to be announced as live ball appeals?

IRISHMAFIA

Manny A wrote
But it wouldn't be an appeal if the "force" is reinstated on her if she heads back towards home and is between home and first, would it? Or are you suggesting that tags of the base when other runners reinstate the force are required to be announced as live ball appeals?

What force? No, I do not buy anything is reinstated at 1B

Manny A

IRISHMAFIA wrote
What force? No, I do not buy anything is reinstated at 1B

That's why I put "force" in quotes. I realize a BR isn't forced at first base by definition.

But for all intents and purposes, the BR's status as she runs to first is the same as any other runner being forced to a base. In fact, it's even more restrictive (e.g., she can't reverse course when being tagged, she can't hinder a throw to the base while running outside a defined lane, etc.) So I respectfully disagree that she doesn't reinstate her requirement to go to first base should she mistakenly start returning to home.

After all, where else can she legally run to? The reason a force is reinstated on other runners is because they aren't entitled to anything else. The same is the case with the BR at first. It may not technically be a force play, but why treat it any differently?

HugoTafurst

FYI, USSSA makes it clear that the BR is included in the force play def.

And the force is reinstated.

Manny A

HugoTafurst wrote
FYI, USSSA makes it clear that the BR is included in the force play def.

And the force is reinstated.

FWIW, both ASA and NFHS state in their respective rule books that a play at first base is a force. Where? It's in the Double-First rule (8-2-M in ASA, and 8-10 in NFHS).

Under 8-2-M-4 in the ASA book, it says, "On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either..." The exact same wording is in 8-10-2a in Fed

Fed also mentions in 8-10-1, Penalty 2, "The batter-runner is out for interference when there is a force play and the batter-runner touches only the white portion..." And in Penalty 3, it says, "Obstruction is called on the defense when there is a force play on the batter-runner..."

So while both ASA and NFHS define Force as only being applied to other runners, they recognize that a play on the BR at first is essentially a force play. They may not have intended to do that, but it's in their books. 😉

IRISHMAFIA

Manny A wrote
That's why I put "force" in quotes. I realize a BR isn't forced at first base by definition.

But for all intents and purposes, the BR's status as she runs to first is the same as any other runner being forced to a base. In fact, it's even more restrictive (e.g., she can't reverse course when being tagged, she can't hinder a throw to the base while running outside a defined lane, etc.) So I respectfully disagree that she doesn't reinstate her requirement to go to first base should she mistakenly start returning to home.

After all, where else can she legally run to? The reason a force is reinstated on other runners is because they aren't entitled to anything else. The same is the case with the BR at first. It may not technically be a force play, but why treat it any differently?

AFAIC, you are making my case.

She is not the same as a runner. A runner always has a base to which she can return and be safe. The BR has no place which to return, she MUST go to 1B or risk being put out. By definition, once the BR reaches 1B safely, she is a runner and has various options. Once a player becomes a runner, there is no allowance returning her to BR status.

Has it not been established that a runner may take any path they choose? The newly ordained runner has the option of advancing to 2B or returning directly to 1B. If they select the first option, they have placed themselves in jeopardy and must be tagged off the base to be retired. If taking the latter option, 8.8.I provides the protection from liability to be put out. If the runner does not return directly, IMO, the runner surrenders the protection afforded under Rule 8.8 and the runner may now be put out.

Say this runner thought she was out, headed toward the 3B dugout and was crossing the IF near the circle and all of a sudden there was the realization she was still a live runner and headed for 2B. Are you going to call her out on appeal if the defense tags 1B? Again, is it not true the runner may establish her own base path? And if the runner wants to circle 1B prior to heading to 2B, under what rule do you call them out if they are not avoiding a tag?

I believe you are overthinking and trying to jam multiple rules together to satisfy what you perceive is a hole in the rules when there is no rule intended to be there.

IRISHMAFIA

Manny A wrote
FWIW, both ASA and NFHS state in their respective rule books that a play at first base is a force. Where? It's in the Double-First rule (8-2-M in ASA, and 8-10 in NFHS).

Under 8-2-M-4 in the ASA book, it says, "On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either..." The exact same wording is in 8-10-2a in Fed

Fed also mentions in 8-10-1, Penalty 2, "The batter-runner is out for interference when there is a force play and the batter-runner touches only the white portion..." And in Penalty 3, it says, "Obstruction is called on the defense when there is a force play on the batter-runner..."

So while both ASA and NFHS define Force as only being applied to other runners, they recognize that a play on the BR at first is essentially a force play. They may not have intended to do that, but it's in their books. 😉

Unfortunately, it is the dummying down of the rules for people to understand and it is easier than typing "has yet to reach first base safely" multiple times. It is much like the second sentence of RS #36B is blatantly inaccurate, but ASA insists on keeping it there as they believe the coach and players will understand better.

IOW, they do not believe the some people have the reading skills to comprehend the written rule & interpretation. Problem is, along with the coaches and players, less experienced umpires take it as a rule and misapply it during the game. Sort of like in SP, some umpires dummy down their verbiage and signals to the player's level with calls like "deep", "flat", "high", etc.