Trivia 4
 

I confess I'm not positive about my ruling. The intervening play throws me.

Pick your rule code, and assume that you, the umpire, are positive of the following:

Bases loaded, no outs. After an offensive conference, the runners return to their bases -- except the base runners from 1st and 2nd switch places. This is not caught by an umpire at this point. The runner from 3rd scores on a sac fly and then the defense appeals switching bases at 1st and 2nd. What's the call?

What age?

If 12U or above I would eject the 3BC for unsportsmanlike conduct. Put the runners on the correct base and go on. The HC, if he/she is not already gone, will have a VERY short leash if they object.
If younger than 12, put the runners on the correct base and tell the HC not to let it happen again.

In either case, if the runner(s) advanced on the sac fly, I would put the runner(s) back to the TOP base.

I'm not positive either, but I think I'd still call them both out, let the catch stand and consequently disallow the run. Both runners were still guilty of the violation during the intervening play.

Beth, who should be on 2nd, starts the pitch on 3rd and scores on the Sac Fly. Alyssa, who should be on 3rd, starts the pitch on 2nd and doesn't move on the fly out by Darla.

What exactly do you mean by "the TOP base"? Are you saying you'd put Alyssa back on 2nd and Beth back on 3rd - the TOP bases?

Guilty of what violation, exactly?

NCAA rule (notice the AR):
ASA and NFHS rules are similar (I don't have my books at work), however I'm unsure about how long you get to appeal. NCAA allows you until the end of the half inning, as long as a runner is on base.

Therefore, NCAA ruling is 3 outs, end of inning and no run, and 3 ejections.

In the OP, Beth who should be on 2nd goes to first. Cassie is on 2nd when she shouldn't be. At the end of the play, he's counting Alyssa's run and having Beth and Cassie on first and second. This would only be correct if the intervening play somehow prevents us from calling Beth and Casie out which I don't see.

TOP - Time of Pitch

Put the correct runners on 2B and 1B as they were before the offensive conference started.

But the problem is that unlike NCAA; within the rule book ASA (can't speak to NFHS) does not provide us with an AR/interp in the Rules Supplement section for when we have a switch followed by an intervening play.

In ASA, that action on your part is not supported by any rule.

8-7-Y makes no mention of an intervening play. It says each runner on an improper base shall be declared out. Even if there was a play before it was caught, the runners who switched are still on an improper base.

Triple play?
 

BR is out as a result of playing action.
R1 passing R2 on baseline is out before the pitch.
R2 returning to touch 1B, is also out before the pitch, travesty of the game.

Ruling same as NCAA, minus ejections.

Lacking any further interpretation, I agree, both are out and coach is gone.

Hey thanks... I know what TOP means. where they were at the TOP and where they were before the offensive conference are two different places... which is why I questioned you. TOP is wrong.

However ... placing these runners back on base at all is also wrong.

Partially right result (3 outs), wrong reasons. Eject in Fed or ASA as well. Not positive on USFA.

I'm in slight disagreement, for the sake of discussion. This was not caught until after a play was made. 8-7-Y says "...following any conference" ... not a play. So in the OP, a play has gone by, and one runner has scored (not on any base.) I find it hard to enforce 8-7-Y after the play has been made.

However... arguing the other way, say the runners switch after the conference, and it's noted before a play. Switch them back, no harm, no foul. Nothing has been done at this point to offend the defense. Following this logic, the rule must be in the book to deal with the situation after a play.

Flopping back to my first point, when would we stop enforcing the rule? After 2 plays have gone by? One pitch?

An AR or interp from ASA would make all this a lot easier.

Separate from what's being asked in the OP, from a mechanics standpoint, what was the BU paying attention to during the conference???

No harm, no foul? So you quote part of 8-7-Y, then advocate just switching them back when 8-7-Y happens? The ASA book is very clear on what to do if this is caught in time. 2 outs and an ejection (at least). Not "switch them back, no harm, no foul".

After a play - I understand your questioning of it. Part of me sees this like a BOO - too late to fix (although if I can't call the runners out because of the intervening play, I'm definitely tossing the coach). The other part of me sees stretching "following" to include this, after all, it doesn't say IMMEDIATELY following. I think I'm leaning toward the latter.

So if the EFFECT for 8.7.Y read something like.....

"Each runner on an improper base shall be declared out when such action is discovered by or brought to the umpire's attention by the defensive team prior to or after the completion of the at bat that was in effect during the offensive conference.
In addition the manager shall be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Would that adequately and fairly cover all scenarios?

Yes, if you can talk yourself into "following a conference" including "following a conference and an interceding play".

My point in "no harm, no foul" is similar to having an improper batter at the plate - in the middle of the at-bat, you can replace the improper batter with the proper batter ... 'no harm, no foul.' While yes, 8-7-Y says we should have 2 outs and an ejection, my point is that, immediately following the conference and immediately prior to any play, why couldn't we put them back on the correct bases with "no harm, no foul?" The defense, at this point, hasn't been yet offended.

So in other words the rule as stated would never be enforced? If no harm no foul before the pitch, and unenforceable after a pitch, just when do you enforce it?

Because the only no brainer on this question is that if this would have happened immediately following the conference and immediately prior to any play, you'd have 2 outs and ejection. When, exactly, would you apply 87Y if not then?

The ACTUAL difficult part of this question is whether we can enforce 87Y after a play.

When you two get finished arguing about this, who buys the drinks?:D:D:D

Well I never professed to be a rule writer.:rolleyes:

Absent an interpretation/AR from OKC, as currently written I can't see how.

But the offense attempted to cheat.

OTOH, the rule does not include the words "immediately" or "play" in any capacity. This is one of the rules that was put in the book with an effect intentionally meant to be punitive. And even if a play did occur, you are still in a time period "after any conference" :D

Loophole to How a team scores?
 

Offensive coach would surely know the run should have counted and argue for it.

This NCAA ruling isn't listed as an exemption to scoring a legal run in rule 6, section 1.

?? You lost me here. NCAA 5.6 covers lineups. What post were you replying to?

Declaring runners out?
 

Not replying to any particular post. My NCAA rule 5, section 6 is the MLB 4.09 equivalent to how a team scores?
Actually trying to justify three outs and no run. Only see three outs and a run here.

Note
ASA 8-7-Y declares each runner out. Does run count? NCAA rule declares each runner out and wipes off that run.
Third out was not BR, not force out, and not appeal on preceding runner. What did I miss?

There you lost me. Where in this rule (conspicuously absent is "immediately" or "before the next play") do you see how you CAN'T enforce the rule in this case absent an interpretation from OKC?

I would use the same timing as NCAA; as long as even one is on base, that one is illegally there, if both, I get both. If appealed before a next pitch to erase an illegally located runner that just scored, I'm getting them both.

Note: Though it can be brought to the attention to the umpire by the offended team, that is not noted as a prerequisite to enforce this rule.

They did cheat and you caught them. Enforce the penalty.

OK.....I can see your point there, no disagreement,

Honestly though, until MD started this thread, I never gave any thought to having to enforce 8.7.Y. after an intervening play. Using the NCAA timing works for me, but IMO 8.7.Y, as written, could still use a 'little more meat on it's bones'. It would make life simpler should MD's sitch occur in a game we're working.

I never said don't.

How old is your NCAA rule book? Again, you're referencing a rule that has nothing to do with the topic. In the current (2012-2013) NCCA Softball rule book 5.6 is Lineups. Bringing in a MLB rule reference to support a softball interpretation accomplishes nothing.
NCAA AR 12.10 is what you missed.

Disqualification?
 

Your right. ASA 5-5-B Scoring of Runs and NCAA rule 6, section 1 should have been annotated to disallow the run.

I should have asked if the Substitute/Illegal Player rule wipes off that run?

From ASA pg 75.
d. If the player is in the game illegally as a runner and it is brought to the attention of the umpire before the next legal or illegal pitch has been thrown or a play made, this is a correctable situation.
e. If the player is in the game illegally as a runner and is discovered after a legal or illegal pitch has been thrown or a play made, the player is disqualified and replaced on the base. Any advance of the runner(s) is legal.
From ASA pg 116.
Y. When, following an offensive conference, base runners switch positions on the bases they occupied.
EFFECT: Each runner on an improper base shall be declared out. In addition, the head coach shall be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct.

The sitch in the OP had neither a substitute or an illegal player involved in the play.

The accepted practice is to cite a rule by number & section, not by page number. Page numbers can change from year to year in any organization's rule book. Rule numbers stay constant. It makes it easier to anyone reading your post to follow the point you're trying to make.

Improper NCAA Ruling?
 

It wouldn't seem “fair” to call B4 out and return R1 to third base.

B4 is out and R1 scores, and R2 and R3 are declared out. Three outs.
B4 returns to bat, R1 returns to 3B, and R2 and R3 are declared out. Two outs.


NFHS SITUATION 6: R1 is at third base and R2 is at first base with no outs. B3, an illegal offensive player, hits the ball to F6, an illegal defensive player, who turns a 6-4-3 double play. R1 crosses the plate. At the end of playing action, before the next pitch, both coaches come out and appeal the opponent’s illegal player. COMMENT: Since this situation is unlikely to occur, there is no specific rule/penalty to address it; therefore, the umpire must make a decision as in 10-2-3g. The most likely rulings would appear to advantage one team over the other and it is impossible to invoke penalties that are completely “offsetting.” There-fore, one possible “hybrid” ruling is presented for consideration. ONE POSSIBLE RULING: Since both teams violated the illegal substitute rule and the violations were discovered before the next pitch, the umpire shall restrict both the illegal offensive and defensive players to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game with legal substitutes replacing them. It would seem “fair” to call B3 out and return both R1 and R2 to third base and first base, respectively. The game would continue with one out and the player following the illegal batter as the next batter. This penalty incorporates portions from the two individual penalties. (2-57-3; 3-4-2 Penalty; 3-4-3 Penalty; 10-2-3g)

NCAA 6.8 Delayed Dead Ball. (Affects 12.20 also.)
New 6.8.6 Base runner leaving a base prior to release of the pitch.
Rationale: Changes the effect from immediate dead ball to delayed dead ball in order to
advantage the defense.
12.20 Leading Off Base.
EFFECT—The ball is dead, “No Pitch” is declared, and the offending base runner(s) is out.
Each other base runner must return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch. Delayed
dead ball is signaled. At the conclusion of the play, the coach of the defensive team shall have
the option of taking the result of the play or “No Pitch” is declared and the batter is returned to
the batter’s box. In addition, the offending base runner(s) is out, each other base runner must
return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.
Rationale: Allows the offended team to choose whether or not to take the results of the play or
the traditional result for leaving a base early.

Which of those rules clarifications have anything to do with the OP? We are not dealing with an illegal player or a runner leaving a base early.

Let's finish the inning!
 

Section 6. A RUNNER MUST RETURN TO THEIR BASE.
I. After leaving a base for a conference.

Delete 8-7-Y

There, I fixed it. 10-2-3g.

Section 6 of what rule number and what rule set?

10-2-3-g. ??? Again, what rule set? I doubt that it's ASA as Rule 10 is Umpires,
can't be NCAA as their Rule 10 covers Pitching. I don't work Fed so perhaps that's the rule set that's being referenced????

Please enlighten us.

Enlighten?
 

ASA 8-6 already exists, however, 8-6-I DOES NOT EXIST.
I made it up, per FED 10-2-3-g in 2012 rule interpretation 6 above.

OP
Bases loaded no outs,
Coach calls conference, base runners switch.
Before pitch, R3 two out, 3 ejections.
After pitch, Sac Fly, 3 out, no run, 3 ejections.

No college coach would employ such a strategy.

You forgot to include the equally relevant:
ASA 4.2.B - Teams using a physically challenged player on offense and defense must have 11 players.

AND

NCAA Mens Lacrosse: 4.2 AR#1 - At the center lineup at the beginning of the game, should officials inspect equipment? Ruling: No.

[QUOTE=SAump;861655]It wouldn't seem “fair” to call B4 out and return R1 to third base.

B4 is out and R1 scores, and R2 and R3 are declared out. Three outs.
B4 returns to bat, R1 returns to 3B, and R2 and R3 are declared out. Two outs.

I don't think R1 is being returned to 3B and therefore not scoring. She's not scoring because R2 and R3 were out at the start of the play so the catch is the third out.

Minus ejections?
 

12.9.4 When, after play has resumed, she fails to return to touch the base she previously occupied, and the defensive team makes a proper appeal. Ruling: The base runner is out.

See OP. Run R1 scores, three outs. 1) B4 out on Sac Fly, 2) R3 at 2B out on appeal, and 3) R2 at 1B out on appeal.