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OBS or Tag Up
Due to the current lull, I bring up a sitch that happened twice almost identically, in one weekend, with two different sets of teams, about a month ago.
2-man mechanics ASA: R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, B3 hits long fly ball down the left field line, 175-180ft. PU has catch/no catch, fair/foul, and R1. BU comes inside, button hooks for tag up responsibilities for R2. F7 makes heroic effort, but does not make catch in either case. Fair ball. Apparently there was OBS at 1B by F3 on B3 and was not seen by either ump due to the angles on the play, which was brought up by each OC. Explanation to OC in each case was the same; that this is simply one of the imperfections of the 2-man mechanics, where there are spots on the field and no eyes. Was that a valid answer? What are the best mechanics on this? P.S. In both cases B3 made it safely to 2B on the plays being made on the lead runners. So, it was moot. |
As you explained, 2 sets of eyes cant watch 3 offensive players. Not much else to explain except you cant call what you didnt see and because of the nature of the play it put both umpires backs to the BR.
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With experience, some umpires learn how to gauge situations and find a point to try to get the ability to possibly catch as much action as possible. |
I'm confused as to why this is a difficult situation. According to a recent thread about umpire responsibilities with multiple runners, this seems rather routine.
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PU Priority two: PU needs to read the play and a) take any runner being played on at home OR b) non BR's at 3rd. In this particular play, the ball was not caught and now PU must take non BR's at third. R1 in this case will score without a play. If one is so worried about R1 missing the plate, PU can peek 45-50 feet. IMO, too many umpire are worried about runners missing the plate without a play. Now let's turn our attention to BU. BU Priority one: R2 tag at second. As you stated, BU came inside. That's fine, but now he must line himself up with 2nd and the ball, while realizing that the BR is to his back. Once the ball is not caught (or caught), BU will watch the tag up and hold his position at 2nd being if R2 goes to 3rd, it is not his responsibility. While not stated in the OP, I'm sure R1 was off when the ball isn't caught. Therefore, BU should look ahead and make sure PU is where he is suppose to be (at 3rd) and . . BU Priority two: BR. BU should now quickly focus on the BR by opening up to 1st and the ball (maybe even getting a bit deeper into the infield to avoid throwing lanes) and read what BR is doing. If she round and goes to 2nd, take a calling position at 2nd. If she stops at 1st, then move to a calling position at first. |
In "BU will watch the tag up and hold his position at 2nd being if R1 goes to 3rd, it is not his responsibility", did you mean R2 goes to 3rd?
Either way, is BU not being resp. for 3rd only if PU has no play at home? |
According to the new Mechanics DVD
I believe the BU has "intermediate" runners at 3B. I could be wrong.
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Also, from the mechanics manual: In the section marked "FP with runners on second and third" BASE UMPIRE. . . . 4. On all balls hit through the infield or to the outfield that you do not go out on, immediately come inside the diamond, button hook and take the batter-runner all the way to third base. And in the preamble to the two umpire system: "The PLATE UMPIRE should be prepared to take a share of the base plays. The lead runner, if there is more than one on the bases, it he plate umpire's responsibility. . . . If there are two runners on base and the next batter hits for extra bases which will score the lead runner without a play, the plate umpire pays little attention other than noting that the runner touched third base and the plate. Attention then is directed to the second runner and the play that may be made. The BASE UMPIRE meanwhile ascertains that all runners touch second and First Bases (sic) and takes whatever plays are made on the batter-runner." Furthermore: "There are four times a base umpire will make a call at third base: 1. On the batter-runner on a triple with no runners on base. 2. One the last runner into third base. 3. On a lone runner on fly ball advancement. 4. On any return throw from the plate area or a cut-off by a player." Therefore, in the OP, BU does not have responsibility on R2 once she advances to third, and must pick up the BR. If, in the OP, the catch was made, then BU would take R2 into third (that's a combination of #2 and #3). Your comment may be referring to #4, but this is not the OP. |
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"By the book PU should be there unless there is a throw that takes them home. BU by the book covers a play on a lead runner at 3B if there is a throw that is returning from home, or cut off while on it's way to home and then thrown to 3B to make a play. In a follow up thread you asked to not worry about if there was a throw, well you can't disreguard this fact since it changes the coverage. Ex. If bases are loaded and there is a base hit to the outfield the PU should move into the holding zone and read the play being ready to move into position at 3B or home depending on what happens. IF there is going to be a play at the plate then PU needs to move toward the plate and take that play, any subsquent play on a throw being returned to 3B from the plate area will be the BU's call on R2. Now if R1 is going to score with no play the PU should stay in the holding zone and see the touch of home over their shoulder while preparing for a play at 3B on another lead runner. So the quick answer to your question is, if there is a play at the plate (which could just be a throw to the plate) on a lead runner, then as a BU you know you have to cover a return throw to 3B on another runner. If there isn't a play/throw toward home then by the book PU should have that play at 3B. Still always a good idea to look, could be possible PU got fooled and thought there was a play developing at plate and you may be in a better position to take the call but as always this is a deviation so COMMUNICATE and make sure it's clear you are taking that call at 3B. " |
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This is absolutelty correct, but it doesn't solve the issue presented in the OP. BU's first priority is the tag up at second on the potential catch. The issue is that by the time that catch is made or not made, the OBS at first base has already happened with no eyes in that area. Another one of the drawbacks of the two umpire system. We have to work in priorities. EA had a great article on her website a few years back regarding prioritites. Unfortunately, it's not available at this time. And yes, it is perfectly acceptable to tell a coach that you were covering your first responsibility and did not see something that happened behind you. |
I would not go inside on this particular play unless I noticed my partner staying at home (he shouldn't, but it could happen). It makes your tag-up angle at 2nd worse, and takes BR completely out of your vision. If you're at B, and take a few steps toward 2nd (toward whatever angle on the catch and 2nd base you feel is ideal for you), you can glance at 1st base for the touch and possible OBS. Obviously, if BR's approach of first base coincides with the catch, you aren't going to get it except for VERY peripherally (and maybe not even that), but at least you're in the best spot for the tag AND for possibly checking 1st base.
Also, I should note to the OP... Many good teams have a coach watching the umpires. There may not have been OBS on the play you're talking about at all... but when the coach noticed that you didn't look over - he went out to ask you about it, knowing you didn't see it and would likely believe him - and hoping that you might do something about it. |
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I don't see how outside makes the tag up angle worse, especially coming from left side. To me, getting inside, facing 2nd with 1st and left field seen peripherally would cover all and not be in any throwing lane. Yes, if PU stays home, an angle switch to face 2nd & 3rd would be needed. In that case, PU is off 3rd base line, able to look toward 1st as usual. |
I guess I presented ambiguity about PU and 3rd in this thread and my Mechanics Review thread.
That was based on most of my experience having pre-games that said PU stays home if any play. Now I see that PU is still responsible for 3rd, unless physically can't get there after a close play a home or some impediment. |
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Cecil, I'm not picking here nor intend to offend. However, I have found it is better to stick to the language of the book, including mechanics and rules. We can argue the validity of the issues ("outside-inside theory") but keeping to a common language is key. Just like the mechanics themselves, they are STANDARD so we don't have pre-games where people are freelancing and you have no idea what they are doing. |
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Ok, let's break this down and talk about angles. What do we need to see? I think we can agree in order of importance - a) R2, b) the ball (which is on the line in the OP), c) BR. Can we take a position either inside OR outside that will allow this? YES - you need to open your hips wide and get a bit deeper into the infield when inside. However, think about the most likely "next" plays. Inside or outside will be ok for the BR into 2nd or back to 1st, but if the BR goes to 3rd, outside isn't good at all. Even if you keep up with her, you have the ball coming over your shoulder. Therefore, you can be 3 out of 3 covered or 2 out of 3 covered. And the later works for aging rock stars only. In a conversation with an ASA higher (highest?) up this summer, the inside/outside conundrum was discussed. He basically said that inside or outside you will give you the same look AND at times be in a throwing lane (I've got a real good poker face-how could I not with my screen name?-but I know he saw my jaw drop to that statement). However, the next statement was the best selling point for ASA mechanics: the ASA wants you inside because it is where other umpires expect you to be. So now we are back to my first and foremost point. The standard mechanic is applicable in this OP. |
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Being inside facing 2nd (unless you back up almost to the circle), you can't see both the catch on the LF line and anything at first (assuming your eyeballs are not in your ears. :) ) Besides, if possible, you don't want a peripheral angle on the first touch by LF... you'd like that in your direct background as you're watching the touch (or the touch in your foreground as you see the first touch by LF). |
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Quote: Originally Posted by CecilOne I don't see how INSIDE makes the tag up angle worse, especially coming from left side. To me, getting inside, facing 2nd with 1st and left field seen peripherally would cover all and not be in any throwing lane. How do you see the LF touch at alll when outside (yes meant outside this time)? |
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And regarding BR going to third, keep in mind, I'm not advocating growing roots and standing outside motionless. Remember, we're talking about a fly to left near the line. The play of BR to third is highly unlikely, and if it does develop, we have had plenty of time to adjust. Assuming PU came up the line as we agreed he should, he's likely got R2 at 3rd. I'm behind R2, but significantly ahead of BR. Once BR passes me, and assuming no play at 2nd, I'm already moving behind her further inside - and am now likely exactly where you advocate starting on this play. I see no disadvantage in any possible play being outside on this play, and you have the large advantage of the very best look at the catch in LF and the runner on 2nd - coupled with a decent vantagepoint for actions at or around 1st base. Whereas starting inside you have an inferior view of the catch and 2nd base at the same time, and nearly NO view of actions at first base. |
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As general clarification ... if you can't get to that spot (bad knees, old knees, or too low of a fly to get there), then the spot everyone else is advocating is where you want to be. I'm just trying to say outside (on the B side of 2nd) is better on THIS play. |
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At a minimum it eliminates having 1B behind you, and can put everything in front of you. Of course, you need a wide-angle lens. :cool: |
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If you are outside (and once again, NO softball organization designates locations on the field as A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.) between 1st and 2nd, and the BR busts for a triple, and you let her pass, you will be behind the play, and straight line the tag. It isn't a very efficient movement. Maybe the standard mechanic was develop with efficiency in mind? The way to cover this play is as stated. There are more advantages inside than outside. And trust me, I'm a big advocate of staying outside (there are time as U1 in and NCAA 3-umpire where I'm never inside). Regardless, it is the standard mechanic for ASA/NFHS games. If you believe something else is better, lobby to change the manual; freelancing is not an option. When I instruct at clinics (multiple levels under multiple codes), I'm constantly referring to mechanics manuals. If this OP happened in a college game, my decisions may be different (but for this play, most likely not, reading more of what the BR is doing). But the OP referenced ASA; this is the ASA answer (as well as Fed). |
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Didn't get that earlier and now I get the view of the catch, but still harder to see 1st or cover 3rd if needed. OK, but non-standard and probably confusing/distracting to the PU. p.s. No mobility problem here. |
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The "standards" can allow a crew of strangers to step on the field and know exactly where each umpire is going to be and what they are covering on the play without going into a detail pregame clinic |
I think I am going to do what at least one of you listed. I am going inside to lineup 2B and the possible catch in LF, but I am also going to go a little deeper to open an angle with 1B and I will use the old saying "keep your head on a swivel" and be looking back and forth between 1B and LF (2B and R2 will always be in my view while doing this).
As many of you have said the tag up at 2B is #1 priority, but when will that happen or not happen? When the ball is caught or not caught right? So does it do us any good to stand there with our right eye on 2B and our left eye on LF when the ball is 10' in the air 15-20' away from the leftfielder? Why can't we get inside and glance at LF see there is time then look at 1B, look back at LF then if there is still time look back at 1B? Agreed there will be a point when you have to focus on LF (with 2B still in sight) and will miss things behind you at 1B, and that is when you use the comments listed above 'sorry coach but with 2 umpires that is all I could cover I tried to keep an eye on 1B but had to be focused on LF to see the timing for R2 to tag up and that must have been when the OBS happened, I can't call what I didn't see'. But by going a little deeper inside it makes you able to see more which then takes less of a head movement to see 1B then back to LF, doing that along with reading the play and recognizing you have time to look at 1B then back to see the play in LF will help reduce the amount of 'stuff' you miss at 1B. |
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:D |
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Laughing about it now, but was VERY uncomfortable at the time. |
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:o |
Thanks to Tony for the 26 posts of engaging discussion. :cool:
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What about the other 7?
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