Unrep Sub: Say Something or Stay Mum?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

Crowder, you idiot, you're wrong!

I am going to take the other side, however.

ASA 6-B: ...The use of an unreported substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is in the game. (emphasis mine)

Since she is coming to bat, there is a potential opportunity for an out if the defense is paying attention. (6-C-3). It's not your job to remind the coach to report her back in the game.

I believe this to be a different situation than preventing a coach from making an illegal substitution. In that case, the penalty is more severe, a disqualification as opposed to an out, at the most, for an unreported sub.

I'm with Andy.

And to Andy's point, lets say the defense was paying attention and was planning to utilize (6-C-3) to get an out should she reach base?
In your sitch, DC said nothing when you went over to the OC to inquire about the re-entry; but I'm sure you can imagine the possible ****house that could occur if the DC chose to make it an issue.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

In your sitch, DC said nothing when you went over to the OC to inquire about the re-entry; but I'm sure you can imagine the possible ****house that could occur if the DC chose to make it an issue.

I can. But again, I would like to know if there's any guidance from ASA that tells umpires to not say anything in this situation.

Batting out of order is clearly an Appeal Play by rule. The umpire is not allowed to bring to the attention of either team when he/she sees an improper batter at the plate. But the unreported substitution situation does not have the same restriction to do nothing until appealed as far as I know. And not all unreported substitution violations would result in an out. So do we say nothing for any/all types, or just those that would create an out when properly discovered?

[Dakota]

Rule 4-6-C-5 says

5. When a runner and that runner is brought to the attention of the umpire BEFORE a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play made;
EFFECT: No penalty. Replace the unreported substitute with the correct
player or enter them as a legal substitute.

(Yeah, I know, your situation is a batter...)

The rule does not state any conditions about who brings it to the umpire's attention, or how it is brought to the umpire's attention, only that it is brought to his attention. In your situation, the player herself brought it to your attention by being physically distinctive.

Personally, I wouldn't have intervened, but you do have that principle to hang your hat on.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Rule 4-6-C-5 says(Yeah, I know, your situation is a batter...)

The rule does not state any conditions about who brings it to the umpire's attention, or how it is brought to the umpire's attention, only that it is brought to his attention. In your situation, the player herself brought it to your attention by being physically distinctive.

Personally, I wouldn't have intervened, but you do have that principle to hang your hat on.

ASA 6-B, as quoted in my previous post, does state how an unreported sub is to be handled.....as a protest by the offended team.

If the offended team catches it, great, if not, their loss.....

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Andy

ASA 6-B, as quoted in my previous post, does state how an unreported sub is to be handled.....as a protest by the offended team.

Not trying to be thick-headed, but in my mind I read how a violation is handled as meaning that the umpire cannot rule on the unreported substitute unless the offended team protests.

In other words, if I had let this batter bat and get on base, I could not call her out myself before the next pitch for being unreported. The defense would have had to protest the violation.

That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.

Right there with you.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.

Would you rule on any other rule violations (which this is -- a violation of the substitution/re-entry rule) before it is brought to your attention? Already mentioned was batting out of order. How about illegal re-entry (she was in the improper batting position)? How about a runner missing a base . . . leaving early . . . using the improper portion of the base at first base . . . missing a base?

In your situation (and the one's I've mentioned), you do remain silent, as (as also mentioned before), you took away a play from the defense.

Not to sound pithy, but do you need a directive from ASA/OKC to tell you NOT to intervene?

Now, if you were playing under NFHS rules, the umpire CAN discover an unreported substitute/re-entry. At which point, you issue the team warning (if it is the first time).

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

How about a runner missing a base . .

No... the rules specifically say the umpire may not rule on an appeal play until it is appealed

Originally Posted by Big Slick

. leaving early . .

Yes, not an appeal play.

Originally Posted by Big Slick

. using the improper portion of the base at first base . .

No, if the runner, since this is an appeal play. Yes, if this is the defense, since the runner is not out.

Originally Posted by Big Slick

. missing a base?

Is there an echo in here?

As I already said, I would not intervene on an unreported substitute. Let the defense protest if they notice.

And, I would not enter an illegal player on my lineup card without first telling the coach "you can't do that, coach."

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Not trying to be thick-headed, but in my mind I read how a violation is handled as meaning that the umpire cannot rule on the unreported substitute unless the offended team protests.

In other words, if I had let this batter bat and get on base, I could not call her out myself before the next pitch for being unreported. The defense would have had to protest the violation.

That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.

What about fedelation? Never mind. Big slick got it.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

I have been guilty of the same thing......it is not going to mean the end of the world.

I liked it when we did not allow illegal things to take place.....IJS.

Joel

[Tgoblue]

Guy it's a game not a life change moment nice job of keeping it in it's proper perspective that being the spirit of the game is what make it just that a game let them play.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Not trying to be thick-headed, but in my mind I read how a violation is handled as meaning that the umpire cannot rule on the unreported substitute unless the offended team protests.

In other words, if I had let this batter bat and get on base, I could not call her out myself before the next pitch for being unreported. The defense would have had to protest the violation.

That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.

You are preventing the defense from getting an out. If R1 misses 2nd base, we don't tell her to go back and touch 2nd. We don't give a way that she missed 2nd. Same situation. Both are appeal plays by the offended team. What are you going to do if this was on defense and you noticed it. The other team may be holding on to the fact that there is a unreported defensive sub. They may want to pull out that card when it benefits them which is their right.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

...Both are appeal plays by the offended team...

If by "both" you meant the unreported sub v the missed base, no, they aren't both appeal plays. The unreported sub is handled as a protest.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I can. But again, I would like to know if there's any guidance from ASA that tells umpires to not say anything in this situation.

Batting out of order is clearly an Appeal Play by rule. The umpire is not allowed to bring to the attention of either team when he/she sees an improper batter at the plate. But the unreported substitution situation does not have the same restriction to do nothing until appealed as far as I know. And not all unreported substitution violations would result in an out. So do we say nothing for any/all types, or just those that would create an out when properly discovered?

You make a good point.
But absent that guidance from ASA, and assuming that there is not one in place already; until such time that ASA provides us by rule, R/S, manual, or a specific directive from OKC, a procedure for handling this specific sitch, I'm handling it like a batting out of order sitch.
I'd rather err that way than the other. JMO.