Missing Player in Lineup
 

Here's a scenario I faced during the spring high school season, and I'm offering it up for discussion. Let me know where I went wrong!

Home team head coach approached my partner and me as we were doing the equipment checks, and asked me if I could delay the start of the game as much as possible. His dilemma was that he had a starting player who was still playing a tennis match, and she wasn't at the park. I just left that one alone and kept doing my thing.

Well, when we did the plate conference, the coach handed me his lineup card, and he had the missing player listed in the #1 batting slot and playing F9. I didn't know that at the time until it became apparent later.

His card also had the DP listed in the #8 batting slot, and "F7" right next to the letters "DP". His Flex, appropriately listed in the #10 slot, had no position number listed next to her. So I asked him what position was his Flex player playing, and he mumbled something to the effect of, "I can play any of my ten starters in the nine defensive positions." I'm not sure what he meant by that, and I answered, "Well, if you're going to have a DP/Flex, I don't think you can start the game with your DP playing defense for the Flex because that removes the Flex from the lineup, and you really end up having nine starters, not ten." But since I wasn't 100% sure about that and whether it was okay to do so, I accepted his lineup as given to me.

But back to the missing player. When the announcer did the player introductions, he announced the leadoff batter playing F9, and nobody came out of the dugout. So NOW I'm really wondering what is going on, but I remained mum. After the intros and National Anthem, the home team took the field, and they had the DP playing F7, and the Flex in F9 (for the missing player)!

Well, I went over to the coach and asked him, "What's going on, John?" He answered that he had both his DP and Flex in the game on defense which he could do. The DP was playing defense for the player in the #1 batting slot (the missing player), and that player would be offense only. I asked him, "Is she here?" and when he didn't answer, I told him I was pretty sure he couldn't have a missing player in his lineup. He insisted she was on her way to the park from her tennis match. I really didn't want to argue with him and hold up the game because the girls were ready to play, so I started the game.

Needless to say, when the home team came up in the bottom of the first inning, the missing player was not available to bat, so the coach brought in a substitute player off his bench for her. I was beyond wanting to bring up anything more, and we just played. The opposing team never said anything (they probably weren't even aware of what was going on).

Comments? Thoughts?

Coach, the scheduled start time is XX o'clock. I can't delay the game waiting for one of your players to arrive. If you have enough players, we are starting the game at that time. If not, invoke whatever rules your state has concerning non-started games.

Since the FLEX is intended to be a defensive player, she needs to have a defensive position listed. What he was trying to do is have the DP play defense for the missing player. He is correct in saying that any nine can play defense, but all 10 players on the lineup need to have a defensive position listed including the DP listed as the DP.

Nothing illegal has happened. He plugged his DP in to play defense for the leadoff hitter and took a chance that his leadoff hitter would arrive prior to the bottom of the first inning when she was due to bat. When she didn't, he used an available sub.

If you would have taken a few more minutes at the plate conference to determine exactly what the coach was wanting to do with his DP, you would realize that everything was kosher. The FLEX player needed to have a defensive position listed. The DP was not playing defense for the FLEX, but for the missing leadoff hitter. Simply a defensive switch and perfectly legal. To add, yes the DP can start the game playing defense for the FLEX, it just needs to be reported once the lineups have been accepted and are official.

When dealing with the DP/FLEX, I always try to take a few extra minutes to determine exactly what the coach is trying to accomplish in order to make sure it is legal.

Only thing I'd add to the above is to KNOW, not "think" you know, the DP/Flex rules. I think that would have solved your confusion right at the beginning.

This isn't so much an issue regarding the DP/Flex rules as it is the handling of a player who is listed in the line-up but is not present. I couldn't find anything in the NFHS rule book or case book that states a player must be present at the game site to be listed.

I guess the coach was trying to circumvent the need to list the missing player as a substitute and have someone else listed as the starter. Putting the missing player into the line-up when she arrived after the game started would require a substitution that, I suppose, he didn't want to burn. I dunno.

While you haven't exactly said it, it appears that part of your concern is about listing a starting player that isn't present when the game starts. That isn't a stated rule in NFHS softball, although the necessary number to match the lineup (9 or 10) must be present; you can't list the DP/FLEX with only 9 present.

It sounds to me like the coach followed all applicable rules correctly.

Well you may need that too... but it was this I was referring to:

It's important not to use "I think" with a coach, but it's just as important to actually KNOW what he can and can't do with the DP/Flex.

Sounds like the coach did just about everything correct. At the plate meeting, I really only check the pitcher/catcher positions for courtesy runners (ASA/Fed). Coaches I've had will typically tell you when the DP is going in for someone, but not 100% of the time.

I really have no heartache with anything the coach did - and wouldn't think a thing about it if it happend on my next game. Not the smartest thing to not start someone else in hole #1, but that's a coach for ya. My biggest problem would be stopping the game when the player showed up to check her equipment.

Well, it's been quite a while, and perhaps I didn't use those exact words when I spoke to the coach. :rolleyes:

I must admit, however, that that was the first time I ever heard of a coach listing a DP/Flex on his/her line-up, but then having the DP start in the Flex's listed defensive position. It did catch me off-guard. And then the coach had the Flex and the DP both in on defense when the game started and the player listed in the #1 batting position was still missing.

This begs another question: Was this a case of an unreported substitution? Is there a requirement to report when a DP plays defense for someone other than the Flex?

If the DP is playing defense for anyone other than the flex, no one has left the game and nothing to report. There has not been a substitution. The only time a coach would need to report the DP on defense would be if they were to be playing pitcher or catcher so they would be eligible for a courtesy runner.

Now, NCAA does require all defensive position changes to be reported. So, under NCAA rules the DP would need to be reported as playing any defensive position.

No offense intended, but we can only go by what you actually type. Don't roll your eyes at someone who believes that you mean what you type... how could I have guessed that you didn't?

Maybe I made my point poorly because you seem to disagree with it while going about proving it. But this is what I'm talking about. I didn't mean to offend you by saying you need to learn this rule and be SURE of it - I bet more than half of the umpires out there are caught off guard by this rule at some point in the season ... and sometimes illegal things are allowed to happen because someone misses a small part of this rule. We ALL need to be SURE on this rule - because it has a lot of possibilities and flexibility - and coaches are creative.

Again, my point exactly. Of course not. Again, without offering offense, you should know this. DP playing defense for LF is exactly the same as LF playing defense for RF.

Is there a requirement to report when the shortstop goes to play left field and the left fielder goes to play shortstop? The DP playing defense for anyone other than the FLEX is the same thing. Simply a defensive position change. No player has entered or left the game and the batting order is not changed.

I usually ask the coaches at the plate meeting to let me know if they make a defensive change involving their pitcher or catcher so I can keep track if they want to use a courtesy runner. It is not required that they do so, however.

I'm obviously showing my failure to fully grasp the DP/Flex rule when it comes to certain subtleties.

The reason I ask if it was considered an unreported substitution of sorts is because most coaches will tell me when they're bringing in the DP to play defense for someone other than the Flex. I know that the rules don't include the entry of the DP on defense for someone other than the Flex as a substitution. But I wasn't sure if it still had to be reported (similar to when a courtesy runner enters the game).

Live and learn...

It is not similar to the CR because the CR rule specifically requires reporting, while the DP/FLEX rule does not.

I am still confused whether the DP was reported as playing for the FLEX before the game.
If so, different status for the FLEX, who then re-entered to play defense in the 1st along with the DP.

mb makes an excellent point here.

We all pretty much umpire for multiple sanctioning bodies during the course of a week, month, season; and I'm sure on some occasions the same day.

I can't say (without going to my books) if every part of the DP/Flex rule is exactly the same for every code that I work. And even after going to the books, I'll be the first to admit that I have trouble keeping them all straight in my head...especially when you add to the mix (depending on the code) the use of EP's, AP's, and CR's.

To that end, keeping in mind that misapplication of the rule could lead to a protest, I keep a small DP/Flex "cheat sheet" for the code I'm working in my line-up card holder. I also make it a point to review it prior to taking the field.

If a coach comes to me with a DP/Flex change or question that for whatever reason makes me go "Huh??", or the coach is trying to be, as mb said "creative" with the DP/Flex; and is adamant that his 'creativity' is allowed by rule, I just consult my sheet.

Actually, no, it doesn't. Begging the Question, Again ;)

Best simplification I can think of, regarding the sub part of this ... is that there are 10 positions on the field... P, C, 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, LF, CF, RF, DP. Moving from one to the other is just a movement of players in the field, and only requires reporting at NCAA level (just like a move from LF to 1B is required to be reported at NCAA level). We all know where the 9 positions are... the DP's "position" is constructed of wood and sits in the shade. :) As long as the player listed as FLEX is taking up one of the 9 positions, and not the comfy DP position, there has been no substitution. The Flex cannot bat without dropping to 9... so she's not allowed to rest in the shade.

FYI, NCAA requires the reporting of defensive changes (Just a little more to remember)
;)

Also, many umpires, after accepting and confirming line-ups official from both coaches will then ask, "Do you have any changes to make at this time"
Some coaches like to submit the line up with a DP/FLEx and imediately substitute the position (dropping to 9, but having the ability to go back to 10).

Starting to become very common among good teams who know how to use the DP/Flex system. Important to ask the question - especially at higher levels.

How many times a game do we or should we ask a coach if they have any subs?
:rolleyes:

IOW, why ask at all, it's their responsibility to manage the lineup.

My handling of this is "The lineups are now official. Are there any changes at this time?"

Shouldn't you ask about changes BEFORE the lineups are official?

Rita

Absolutely not, Rita.
Before the lineups are official, I may verify that something is as that speciific coach wants it to be, but before the lineups are oficial, nothing is official. Coaches who make changes along thes lines understand this.
And that's why I wait until the lineups are official before asking if there are any changes.

To add to what Steve said..
The procedure I follow is to:
1)receive the home team line up, look it over to verify that it is correct (no dupe numbers, DP/Flex, F1/F2 positions are marked (if necessary), substitutes listed, names displayed correctly, etc.
2) Return the Line up to the Home team and ask that she/he checks it over and verifies that it is correct.
3) Repeat the process for the visiting team.

At this point if they have any changes, the are just pencil changes, not official (as the lune-ups are not official yet). Any changes here do NOT count as substitutions.

4) After receiving the verified line-ups, I then make the same statement as Steve M. "The lineups are now official. Are there any changes at this time?"

5) Any changes to the line up now are Substitutions....

I do all that. So what we are doing is defining "changes".:rolleyes:

My point is, if we've just talked about if the lineups are correct, and they've had a chance to correct anything, why would they want to make changes?

:eek:

Rita

Because AFTER the line-ups are official, they are not corrections - they are legal substitutions. And has been stated it is not uncommon for some teams to want to make a substitution (usually involving the DP/FLEX) before the teams take the ifeld or the first batter bats.
This is just a simple way of lettng the coach know that now is the time...

Sigh.

So before the lineups become official, if he changes who is in the lineup, it is a "correction".

After, the lineups are official, changes are "substitutions".

Like I said, defining "changes".

Rita

I am interested too. I assume the lineup handed to me is official. Anything after that is not a correction.....but a substitution.

Joel

I believe it is not official until you have followed the procedures in the rule book. Thus the initial hand over is not official and you can make a correction that is not a substitution.

Speaking NCAA....
5.7 Pregame Meeting
5.7.2......."The umpire shall review each team's lineup card with its coach to be sure it is complete and shall provide one last opportunity for changes* without the changes being charged as substitutions. Once returned to the umpire, each team's lineup is official. In the event of a subsequent change**, the plate umpire shall report the substitution(s) to the opposing team, official scorer......"

It's been my experience that....

* these are changes that generally involve things like a uniform #, defensive position, correctly listing the subs, etc.
and.....
**these "subsequent changes" by coaches at the pre-game meeting 99% of the time involve the DP/Flex. Maybe not the norm, but it occurs with enough frequency that it's certainly not the exception.

While neither the NCAA rule book or Manual requires that after receiving the lineups back from the coaches making them official we ask each coach "do you have any changes at this time?".....in the conferences I work it's SOP for the PU to ask.

"The umpire shall review each team's lineup card with its coach to be sure it is complete and shall provide one last opportunity for changes* without the changes being charged as substitutions. Once returned to the umpire, each team's lineup is official."

-----------------------------------------------------
Standard everywhere I ump.

ASA Umpire Manual Pre-Game

D. PU receives line-up cards from each coach
1. Inspects for proper number of players in the starting line-up
2. Inspects for proper information, by rule
3. Returns card to respective coach for final check
4. Accepts as "official" when cards are returned to the plate umpire.

This is the ASA prescribed procedure for handling the line-up cards. If you have not seen this in a clinic, you need to bring it to the attention of the UIC/trainer.

Once the card is confirmed by the coach, it is THE official line-up and any alterations to it from that moment forward is considered a change, whether sub, re-entry, CR, DP/FLEX manuever, whatever.

At this point, that part of the pre-game is done. I understand other associations expect you to continue further, but IMO, it is not the umpire's responsibility, nor place on the field, to prompt/cue/coach the coach.

I understand preventive umpiring, and asking for a sub/change when something occurs in the which dictates such action is fine. However, in the pre-game, nothing has occurred which would make me believe a change is imminent.

Rita,
It is entirely possible that a coach has inadvertantly handed you an illegal lineup card. Before accepting the lineup card as official, we want them to correct it. It's part of the plate umpire's job to make sure that the lineup card is legal - even to the point of not accepting it when something is illegal.
Correcting that/those issues is not making a change.
Making a change means that somebody has entered/left the game or somebody has changed defensive position.

Can anyone get the lineup card printers to head the right hand column as "CHANGES" instead of "Substitutes",
with a "Substitutes" heading at the bottom? :(

You have my vote on that!

I've always scratched my head on that.
Can't really blam a coach for filling in a column marked "Substitutes" with a list of his substitutes!!!

At one time during a rec game,I mentioned to coaches at the plate meeting that, it would be much easier for us (me, anyway), if they left that column blank and lited the subs at the bottom of the sheet.
I also emphasised that they had done nothing wrong, it just is easier to track changes with that column open.

As soon as the game was open, my partner chastised me saying
1) they could do what ever they wanted
and
2) It IS preferable to have subslisted in the "Substitute" column (even though the row they were listed on had nothing to do with the order that they eventially came in to play...

I never could understand point, 2), but now I don't talk about it - I just deal with it.

And just who are those "line-up card" printers? Are you suggesting that the respective sanctioning body now create rule dictating the format in which a line-up card is to be printed? :rolleyes:

I really don't see the issue. The only time I've seen someone screw this up it has been SP guys using a preprinted line-up card. And it is more a lack of common sense than anything else, even with the FP folks.

Most FP teams, have their own line-up sheet/card, so unless YOU are going to provide them, I don't see how you are going to get what you are seeking, but I don't think it is necessary.

You are right - Not necessary / not something we have control over- just something that makes my life easier(the way I manage my card).

Hugo and I talked yesterday, and he gave me a possibility that hadn't occurred to me and hasn't yet happened.

So I get the lineup cards and check that everything is correct, making any necessary changes. Then when I get it back, it becomes official.

What I hadn't considered is the coach who wants to keep the option of DP/Flex but doesn't want to use it right away. After the lineups are official he could, theoretically, immediately reduce his lineup to nine and still have the option of DP/Flex later in the game.

THAT was the answer to my question.

Rita

Come on Mike, like lots of things that will never happen, lightening up the thread with day dreaming. :rolleyes: Sorry I used the wrong emoticon. :o

Then you may be disappointed we have decided to go to the ASA line-up cards in the future. :D

Rita,
I did not recognize that was what you were asking about - sorry - it would have made answers earier to be more clearly understood.

Actually, Mannys use is now acceptable. :mad:

Common does not equate to acceptable. :mad: