Appeal goes wrong
 

Runner on 2nd, batter hits long fly ball to centre right caught by the right fielder - batter out. Runner at 2nd clearly leaves before the ball is first touched and moves on to 3rd. Fielder throws ball back to 2nd. Second baseman stands on 2nd with the ball and looks at base umpire who after several seconds gives the safe sign.
An appeal was made and lost. Could I have appealed an appeal given the FACT that the runner absolutely did not tag-up. The wrong call was made but never got corrected. What went wrong?
After the game I asked the base umpire why he didn't call the runner out since he did not tag-up. Said he didn't see the play(runner tagging or not tagging) therefor was unable to make an out call. Ask as to why he did not see it indicated it was not his responsiblity for that call as he was moving infield to watch the batter-runner touch 1st base in case there was no catch; why not ask partner for help - he couldn't confer with partner since it was a live ball appeal rather than a dead ball appeal.
Whose call was it? Did the base umpire handle the appeal correctly whether or not it was or wasn't his call?

FP, SP, ORG? BTW, it isn't a fact until the umpire says it is. ;)

Speaking ASA

The base umpire that does not go out for the catch is responsible for the tag up at 2B and any play at 2B. PU is responsible for the catch, play at 3B and/or home

When the play was completed, an infielder could have requested a dead ball appeal at which point you could then also request he go to his partner for help.

ASA: If there's a catch, BU has all of it: the tag-up, play, or appeal at 2nd, and the play at 3rd.

Is there any reason you did not try to make a dead-ball appeal at the end of this conversation and then ask him to ask his partner?

Given that BU did not go out on the fly, I think you've gotten your answer - that this was BU's responsibility. If that's so, the ONLY thing he did right was not ask his partner during a live ball - but he surely could have (and likely would have) if you'd asked - especially after he clearly admitted he didn't see the play.

The base umpire was probably too busy pointlessly running inside the diamond rather than just opening, facing the ball and watching the play.

So what you are saying that the procedure listed on page 259 of the 2012 Umpires Manual for this situation is incorrect?

:confused:

don't feed the troll

What I am saying is that is not the best mechanic, despite what ASA says.

On an obvious can of corn to right of center, what advantage is there for the base umpire to come inside the diamond? The elements are all already in front of the umpire. Even if you use the questionable ASA mechanic of having the base umpire take the sole runner at 2nd to 3rd on the tag-up, the base umpire is better off staying outside the diamond so as to not have the cut off throw the ball by the umpire's head when trying to get R2 going to 3rd.

The BU does not have this runner going to 3rd - the PU does.

How do you figure? If the catch is made then the lone runner is the last runner and the last runner belongs to BU.

as above:

The base umpire that does not go out for the catch is responsible for the tag up at 2B and any play at 2B.

PU is responsible for the catch, play at 3B and/or home

ASA Two-Umpire Mechanics
 

With a runner on 2B only, the BU has the tag-up and the runner to 3B

QUESTION: In the Two Umpire System, Fast Pitch or Slow Pitch, when does the base umpire cover 3B?
ANSWER: There are four times the base umpire has responsibility for a play at third base. They are:
1. on the batter-runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. on the last runner into third base.
3. on a lone runner on fly ball advancement.
4. on any return throw from the plate area or a cut-off by a player.

Sounds like several things went wrong. Others have already stated that the tag-up was this umpire's responsibility; I'll add that if he really thought it was his partner's responsibility, then he had no business ruling on this appeal. In situations like this, if you're the head coach, you need to ask for time right away and go ask that umpire politely for an explanation. If it then becomes clear that he ruled safe because he didn't see it, you should then ask if he would get together with his partner.

Cecil, I know you know this. Brainfart? Not enough coffee yet?

From pages 258-259 of the 2012 ASA Umpires Manual:

Runner on Second Base Only - Fast Pitch

Fly Ball to the Outfield:

P - ... Responsible for ... any play on the lead runner at 3B ... . [Italics added.]

B - ... Responsible for the tag up at 2B, any play at 1B or 2B and the last runner to 3B.

In this scenario, the "last runner" is (I assume) the batter-runner after a dropped fly ball.

I do not know where Irish is getting the information offered in his post following yours.

[Edit] The mechanics section has been re-written: See Here.

There have been some issues with ASA getting the manual consistent with the DVD. The interpretation has been that in order for there to be a "lead runner" there must also be a "trail runner." When there is only one runner, there is, by definition, neither a "trail" nor a "lead."


REGARDLESS of who (plate or base) takes the call at 3rd, what is the advantage to the base umpire coming inside the diamond on a routine pop up to right of center field? It actually cuts down the angle/peripheral to see both the runner and the catch. If the base umpire does take R2 to 3rd base, it also puts him in a position where he has to look over his shoulder to see the ball (either thrown directly to 3rd base by the outfielder or by the cutoff) and puts him in the line of fire for the actual play at 3rd. Should R2 get in a rundown, you'll then also have two umpires on the inside of the rundown, rather than boxing R2.

Some may illogically argue "but what if the ball falls and there is a play on BR at 1st base?" You ought to be able to judge the level of play. If the ball does fall, the play isn't going to 1st base anyway. The play is going to 3rd base. If for some godforsaken reason it does go to 1st, who cares? R2 is going to 3rd, so let her pass and then cut in the infield if necessary.

The best thing to do is open up, turn toward the outfield and watch the play and runner. NOT sprint into the infield in order to do the same exact thing and have a worse peripheral and a worse position for a call at 3rd (assuming the base ump takes R2 to 3rd).

Just wondering, at the risk of offending someone with an apparent personal agenda ....

Has anyone ever seen a routine can of corn drop? Sun, wind, nonchalant outfielder, any reason at all?

If so, on the stated play, who notes if BR touched first, is obstructed rounding that bag, possibly advancing to 2nd, or perhaps subject to a throwback to first? I suppose that all could be done in catch-up mode while standing and watching from the outside behind F6. But my preference (and assumably of those that write umpire manuals) is for the BU to be proactive, come inside where he can adequately see the tag at 2nd, and easily pick up the only next play that might happen.

The best clinician ever (EA) noted her philosophies in the early NCAA manuals, as well as her longstanding website. She notes that umpiring is a series of compromises, and that the two umpire system requires more compromises. She also puts a premium on deciding the best position for any play by considering what possible NEXT play may be necessary, not just the current play.

The basic mechanics stated cover every possible situation on this play, as effectively as possible. BU gets the tag, play back to 2nd, and responsible for BR/trail if the ball drops. PU has lead/lone runner into 3rd, then to home if necessary.

Go ahead and hate on the mechanics; when you are still standing behind F6, your NCAA evaluator will be writing it up, too.

Would love to be a fly on the wall for the conversations between this umpire and the evaluators.

If the ball is dropped then the call at 3rd belongs to the PU. That wasn't the OP.

(Edit to add: ) BTW, the lone runner tag up from second was on the ASA test this year.

From the April ASA Rules Clarifications

Thanks. I think it is a bad mechanic, but thanks.

It is not a new mechanic, been that was for over 20 years of which I am aware. It is not that difficult and keeps an umpire a base ahead of the runner.

Geez!!!...doesnt this make the most sense of anything posted on this thread?..instead of dismissing it and routinely trying to disparage this mechanic you should open your eyes and ears. i think if you keep your mind open, you will find that not only is this set of mechanics that Esq guy is presenting to you is not only better for umpires in general but that ,in fact, it just makes better sense

Honestly, unless the fly ball is right on the first base foul line, your peripheral vision should EASILY be able to pick up the catch (or first touch) and the runner at 2nd. Also, if the ball is to RCF, getting out of the way of the throw to third is a matter of one or two steps - something we've all done many many times. The only valid point you really made here was the rundown possibility, but I find that possibility to be far less likely than the ball dropping and your proximity to first base mattering.

That said, neither spot is a disaster, and both require awareness and reacting to the play - something that should be easy for anyone with more than a year or two of experience. Given that neither spot is a problem, and one spot is superior more frequently than the other - and the manual tells us to go to that one spot ... I see no reason not to go to that spot.

"and the manual tells us to go to that one spot"

perhaps the manual youre reading isnt the best for umpires?

I disagree. So do the evaluators and the local organization I'm working for. So does the ASA.

The spot we are supposed to go to might be slightly inferior than what is being suggested here in a few cases - but it's superior in a few cases as well and those cases are more likely than the former cases.

So ... the position is better (slightly) AND the organization we (including you and esq) work for wants us at that position. Why go elsewhere?

not saying that we dont use that position when we work for that organization. in fact we do..what im saying is when i work for other organizations, which i do, i find their mechanics superior. in my opinion ASA mechanics are outdated and im sure in due time they will trend and finally submit to the more modern, efficient mechanics.

The manual does not say go to spot and stand. The manual gives you direction to a general area that is preferred taking all possibilities into consideration. Are there times when I don't feel comfortable where I am in relation to a play? Sure. Do you know what I do then? Move.

good point...not interpreting their own manual's mechanics correctly weakens their argument against an alternative set of mechanics. its probable that most of the naysayers never even worked in an association that prescibes the modern mechanics. not having an on the job comparison makes their point moot

You are not the first one to make this argument (I think this comes up about once a year), so I'll give you the quick rehash.

ASA's mechanics are not 'old', they are designed to be a easy, standard reference for the wide variety of abilities within the ranks of ASA umpiring. They were to be the first group to publish a mechanics manual. The mechanics also span multiple versions of softball, including slow pitch (16" and 12"), fast pitch and modified.

With that being said, the ASA may have an issue with changing, but that is not to say they have never changed. For example, in slow pitch 2-umpire, BU is never on the line. Likewise, the heel-toe plate stance was not the first one advocated and taught by the ASA. So you see, ASA can change when they feel the change is for the good "of their game." (I really stress that last part, maybe using "brand" in lieu of "game").

Now, you are addressing the "inside/outside" theory with what you are defining as "the modern mechanics." To be clear, I don't think any organization "prescribes" you to stay outside. NCAA (who basically first to allow) doesn't "prescribe" you stay outside; it is an OPTION. If you are referring to PONY (which I am not a member), my understanding is that staying outside is also an OPTION (my belief is the PONY manual was created from the NCAA manual). Realize that the NCAA and PONY manual focus only only on fast pitch mechanics. The NCAA manual was also created with a certain level of umpire in mind, an advanced level that would probably equate to 2% - 5% of the ASA's umpire population.

The ASA is abreast of different organizations and the options/differences in mechanics. They did a presentation of mechanic differences in 2011 (you can view the powerpoint on the ASA website). Topics included inside/outside theory, plate stances (let me guess, you use the Gerry Davis?), and coverage of first base in a three umpire system. Is that to say that I agree with all their positions? Sometimes, the ASA and I are at odds in philosophy, but I can understand their point. Their mechanics aren't about me, 1 umpire in over 22,000. Their mechanics are for all the 22,000.

Look, we are all in this together, so my advice is to "live and let live." Work the mechanics in the organization that is on your hat/shirt/ball bag, etc (and what your UIC wants). There is value in both points of view (while there are negatives as well). And you don't want to get in a battle with Irish, he is old and stubborn enough to not give up :D (not to mention that he has the best buttonhook on the Eastern Seaboard).

As for the original play, in ASA/Fed play, BU would have the tag of R1 (from inside the diamond), and if the ball is caught, take the runner into third. If the ball is dropped, PU would have the runner at third. For NCAA 2-umpire (or 3-umpire with a umpire chasing), the tag would be the remaining base umpire (inside or outside the diamond) and the throw the third would belong to PU. I'm unaware how U-trip, PONY, NSA, TCS or PGF cover this play, those are not organizations in which I am familiar.

And you know why? Because I'm off with the batted ball. And I find that to be a problem with many umpires who fight the I/O. Just call me Flash!

Big, as usual, you are right, every year a new group coming in thinking they have just discovered the C-fold towel or sliced bread. I was working a rim at and ASA Major NC more than a decade ago and the key is the crew.

I was also working something similar to what they now call the GD in 1966. Difference was working with a balloon which meant only resting the right hand on the leg. Also, tried the scissors a couple different years to change it up a little, but always ended up with back issues.

BS, little twist on this play. Let's put the catch on the RF line. What are the responsibilities now?

"When you deviate, you communicate." There is not one mechanics manual that covers every situation; actually it would be impossible to draw out every possible play. Unfortunately, too many umpire want to live in a world of "which spot do I go to when X happens" (I think we even saw this in the thread already). Mechanics are not about X's and O's, it is about concepts. Therefore, to answer your little twist: If I'm PU, I'm communicating to my partner that I've got additional responsibilities (fair/foul); if I'm BU, I'm listening for my partner and (even in a game with an ASA evaluator) I may stay outside for a better angle.

Just to note, the PONY manual was not created from the NCAA manual. Believe it or not, PONY does have slow pitch, but it is still youth slow pitch and it barely exists anymore.

PONY has the plate umpire cover third base with a sole runner on 2nd, whether the ball is caught or not. Why ASA would distinguish between a caught and a non-caught ball is beyond me. Obviously, if it isn't caught, the base umpire will have BR, leaving R2 to the plate umpire. But why not just leave R2 with the plate umpire even when it is caught? The plate umpire is just standing there. Now, if the ball is down the line and fair/foul is an issue, then the base umpire may need to pick up R2. But that may be necessary whether the ball is caught or not.

If running doesn't get you in a more advantageous position, stop running. It's foolish.

This issue also comes up with a ball down the right field line and R1 (at 3rd).
Fair/Foul, catch and Tag-up at 3rd and be a difficult call for PU.
Several of my partners and I COMMUNICATE that BU will help with the tag-up at 3rd and "bust-in" (if using the ASA mechanic) a lttle slower to be able to pick-up up R1's tag-up

I had a similar one in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. Lone runner on 3B and a semi-line drive to right-center w/ 2 fielders converging. F8 got there first and had the ball in the glove, then a collision w/ both fielders going a$$ over tea-kettle. I'm still watching to see if there is a catch. Finally determined there was.

Then the appeal on the runner leaving early from third. I didn't see it. Asked partner who told me it was my call. Thanx, pard. Safe! No clue if she left early or not.

Had to eat that one.

I tried for simple, let me try a little harder. Who would have fair/foul call and, in a 2-umpire game, call at 3B?

So what? Just deviate and communicate in that circumstance. You don't create a poor mechanic or keep a poor mechanic because of one specific and not-so-common play. Get real.