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-   -   Trailing runner tagged out after lead runner is obstructed (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/91454-trailing-runner-tagged-out-after-lead-runner-obstructed.html)

AtlUmpSteve Thu May 31, 2012 04:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 844214)
My initial thought (although I didn't post) was to consider R2 as a runner affected by the obstruction and award the bases. However, this part bugs me...

While it is true that in the umpire's judgment R2 would have scored had there been no obstruction, the obstruction did not cause R2 to not pay attention to where R1 was (or, presumably, the coaches) until it was too late and R2 was picked off.

Did obstruction cause R2 to not know where the ball was and where the preceding runner was? Does R2 get a free pass for such a base-running gaffe?

I get Steve's point of the defense not benefiting from the obstruction, but were they? Or were they benefiting from poor base-running by R2?
If we judge the protection at the time of the obstruction for the obstructed runner, why couldn't/shouldn't we also judge the protection afforded other affected runners?? Bad baserunning effectively is overrunning the protection, and needs to be treated as such; but if we judge in this play both runners would have scored if not for the roadblock created by the obstruction, no other decision could be stated to be negating the effects of the obstruction.

CecilOne Thu May 31, 2012 05:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 844214)
My initial thought (although I didn't post) was to consider R2 as a runner affected by the obstruction and award the bases. However, this part bugs me...

While it is true that in the umpire's judgment R2 would have scored had there been no obstruction, the obstruction did not cause R2 to not pay attention to where R1 was (or, presumably, the coaches) until it was too late and R2 was picked off.

Did obstruction cause R2 to not know where the ball was and where the preceding runner was? Does R2 get a free pass for such a base-running gaffe?

I get Steve's point of the defense not benefiting from the obstruction, but were they? Or were they benefiting from poor base-running by R2?
The "mistake " by R2 was caused by R1 still being at 3rd instead of home, result of the OBS.

Stat-Man Fri Jun 01, 2012 04:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwwashburn (Post 844107)
Tcan,

I had your answer at first, as well.

However, a good rule of thumb(that we both forgot:-) is that the defense should never be rewarded for obstructing a runner....and if I am about to do that, I probably am about to screw up!

Thanks to Irsish for straightening me out.

Joe
Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs R1. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R2.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?

jwwashburn Fri Jun 01, 2012 04:23pm
I do not understand your play. I am trying to visualize it.

tcannizzo Fri Jun 01, 2012 04:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stat-Man (Post 844391)
Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R1.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?
I may not be reading this right, but what rule declares R1 safe if not obstructed?

HugoTafurst Fri Jun 01, 2012 05:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stat-Man (Post 844391)
Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R1.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?
If you are suggesting this ciolates the suggestion to "not reward the defensive team for commiting obstruction" you are missing the point.

(Assuming you messed up your R1 and R2 or are an NCAA umpire))

You are saying that the obstruction occurred by F6 obstructing the runner going from 2nd to 3rd (actually R1 in most SB descriptions-except NCAA) AND that R2 was tagged by F4 between 1st and 2nd?

If so, the tag of R2 had nothing to do with the obstruction, so she is out. The defense is not being "rewarded" with an out they would not have gotten. R2 was dead meat no matter what.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jun 01, 2012 05:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stat-Man (Post 844391)
Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R1.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?
I think you mean R2 was tagged out by F4. This would be a DDB and the play allowed to finish. R1 cannot be called out between 2nd & 3rd unless due to an exception to the OBS rule. The BR can still be put out and there can be a play on R1, but if between the bases, it will be a dead ball and the appropriate base awarded. All other play stands.

Why, you ask? Because the OBS did not affect R2 or BR, therefore there is no protection.

Stat-Man Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:47pm
Thanks for the explanatios.

I've also edited my post to clarify runners (hopefully with the correct terminology this time). I'm trying to switch from 'runner on _' to R1,2,3 as appropriate.

I actually saw the play I described back in 2006. The umpire ruled that when the defense obstructed one runner, all runners were then protected, so the out on R2 was nullified even though she was neither obstructed nor affected by R1's obstruction. :confused:


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