Out or Safe?
 

DeJesus is out after collision

Apply this play to ASA / NFHS / NCAA. Rule references, please.

If, as it looked, the runner was knocked off the base by the fielder, that would be OBS and award runner 2nd.
No time to look up rule cites. :(

If the ump judged the runner was off because of his own momentum, out ok.

Can you have OBS WITH possession of the ball?

No (but you knew that ;)).

It was rather rhetorical. ;)

I'd have a hard time calling a runner out on a play like that. Runner had the base and the only reason he lost contact with it was because he was physically knocked off it.

I understand your point and basically agree.

But, to play devil's advocate a little bit, should his pop-up slide be considered and allow the out to stand?

Just wondering, ....
Runner coming into second, F6 has the ball and is setup to make the easy tag..... Runner slides in (legally) and during the collision, ball is dislodged from fielder's posession.
Safe or out?

Copy and paste of what I posted on the SMSUA facebook page:

Looks ugly...both players are trying to make a play...no obstruction or interference. I think I just have a train wreck and go with the out. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, though.

Safe. No rule reference because it's not in the book. Allow me to posit a similar play and ask for your rule reference on it. Runner comes into second with a stand up double. Short stop takes the relay throw, runs up to the runner, bear hugs the runner and gently deposits her three feet off the base while tagging her.
It's not obstruction and there's no rule against it but the defense can't push a runner off a base to get an out.

safe

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

What Pop-up slide?
 

What pop-up slide? You mean the one he attempted but couldn't complete because he was knocked off the bag? That pop-up slide? :)

Safe at second!

Speaking ASA

IMJ, this is not a collision which was inherently caused by the lay-out of the field and manner in which the game is played. I would consult with the PU and utilize 10.1 to rule the runner safe.

AFA the clip, you need to remember the league in which this occurred. And the TH was wrong, it was not a late slide, it was a well executed pop-up.

I find it hard to accept that in a collision the runner must keep in contact with the base as his gained position is displaced. (this is what occurred in the video at 13 seconds. runner's foot touches the bag immediately followed by a tag on his lower shin followed by a collision that removed him from the base and altered his attained position).

I would not have an out at this time.

Yea, that one.

Kind of like Hrbek in the 1991 Series?

Fixed it for ya!
 

He never completed his pop-up slide because of the collision at 2nd. What I find amazing is that there is no explicit rule to cover this. We have to go to rule 10.1. This should be covered more explicitly.

Careful... you'll be banned from MN for questioning that obviously correct call! :D

Since Hrbek was brought up (of course, we knew it would be), the umpire that made the call explained that the runner has to maintain control of his body after contact with the bag, and that (in his judgment) Gant was falling off the base and would have broken contact with or without Hrbek.

You can't make the same argument for the play in this thread, but you can make the comparison that MNBlue did... if a (legal) collision can cause the loss of control of the ball, why can't a (legal) collision cause the loss of contact with the bag?

Change the timing of the play by just a fraction of a second... tag is applied just before the foot touches the bag, but the collision causes the ball to fall out. Safe, right? Why does the offense get the right to demonstrate loss of control of the ball, but the defense doesn't have the parallel right to demonstrate loss of control of the body in maintaining contact with the bag?

BTW, I would not have ruled that an out in amateur fastpitch, but the discussion is interesting...

Yes
 

But he will be welcomed here in Atlanta!

Safe in ASA. Safe in NCAA SB. Safe in Dixie. Safe in USSSA. Safe in USFA. Safe in NFHS. Safe in LL SB.

Safe in MLB. Safe in other OBR. Safe in NCAA BB. Safe in Pony. Safe in LL BB.

I'm sure I missed a few, but I hope I was clear in my opinion.

(I do agree that it's rather odd that this is not officially covered by the rules in ANY of these codes).

(Hrbek ruling was bad as well, but it was bad in judgement and not rule. There's no way Gant's momentum suddenly causes his leg to lift straight up.)

I think you got my point wrong...:D


I suggested the "runner sliding scenario" as no different - two players playing the game and the end result might just be what it is - out or safe...

The question is, what (if anything) makes this play different?

So, Mark, are you saying on that play is the defense doing nothing more than attempting a tag?

I'm with your point; and with the explanation given in the Hrbek/Gant play (but disagree with the judgment!!). If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

No, not saying that. Just playing devil's advocate.

I'm in agreement that once the runner is safe, contact by the defense that causes the runner to disengage should not be rewarded.

Let's extrapolate from the video. What will you use (besides common sense) to judge that the runner's momentum caused the disengagement and not the contact by the defense?

We can all think of instances where even a normal tag knocks the runner off the base. How about a belly slide and the runner stops with the hand on the corner of the base. Now comes a normal tag that knocks the hand off the bag. OUT? I don't think so. The runner didn't voluntarily break contact with the bag nor did she leave it involuntarily due to her own momentum. [removed comment about dead ball]

The rule you would be using to kill the ball here would also direct you to place runners where you think they belong. No way would any umpire worth his salt let the defense gain advantage by killing the ball this way.

I'd like to hear more about the dead ball call, and why. Particularly, as someone noted, if there are other active runners.

Obs = DDB
Int = DB

If DB, then must have been Int. If Int, the runner is out.

That doesn't parse my logic meter...

Perhaps the ball just remains live until playing action ceases? Sort out the guy being knocked off the base during a time out?

Well, that isn't necessarily so.
I agree, but you will need to call time if you rule the runner out, as was the case in the video, because you are going to get a visitor who will want to chat.

What I notice in the replay is that the original call was SAFE, then changed to OUT after F6 momentum to BR/R off 2B.

Bad call, and even worse ejection.

Bingo. The base I think they would have earned.

Here's the deal. No way can you NOT call a runner out off the base while being tagged, and keep the ball live. If you are ruling safe, you have to kill the ball, or else nothing makes sense. The defense has done something wrong (not obstruction by rule, because a player in possession cannot obstruct), but you simply cannot allow the defense to gain by that obviously inappropriate action.

So let's say you equate it to obstruction. Can't be, but certainly equivalent. Isn't it a dead ball when the obstructed runner is (apparently) tagged out? Delayed until then (or end of play), but dead in that instance. To me, the same logic should apply. And, the same ruling applying to other runners, awarded the bases judged where they belong, not dead and returned to last base touched.

This is not Obs or Int. This is rule 10. If you're using logic, equate killing the ball in this case with killing it when an OBS'd runner is tagged.