GT v FSU
 

R1 on 1B.
Ground ball to F4.
U3 signals Out on Tag.
OC appeals.
Crew gets together and call is reversed.
R1 safe on 2B.

I can see if U3 ruled Safe and missed the tag, but un-tag?

I did not see the play but I am thinking if U1 was watching the play, he or she might have had a better angle. I am thinking the U3 was straightlined or had a bad angle. Of course U3 must have had doubts as if I was 100% sure I would have a hard time getting together for a conference. Having said that, my perception, from a limited sample, is that in college tha e umpires get together any time a coach disagrees with a call and comes out.

No question, watching the game, U3 was straight lined, and U1 had a better view.

I believe what was meant by the post is that U3 shouldn't be guessing the out not actually seen; default to the "safe", and have THAT call potentially appealed and overturned.

So far as NCAA manual is concerned, the umpires should only get together when the calling umpire agrees that the other umpire may have additional information to add. In general, assuming a smaller and higher level of training than any other group, that should actually happen less. But, we don't actually work for the NCAA until postseason; this is a conference coordinator issue when umpires feel more required than the manual suggests.

That said; my belief is this call should have been "safe, no tag" to begin with. Good reversal by the crew, but never should have been necessary.

thanks Steve.


Are you working the post season?

Excellent post Steve, and in the bolded sentence you have hit the nail square on the head.

Not this year.

At least primarily my fault this time; I neglected to take the test on time. So much going on, I simply forgot.

another excellent post...other than drinking bad beer, you usually nail it..

It was U3s call by the book, and if U3 sees the defense reach out to tag the runner and sees no space between the ball and the runner then U3 "saw" an out and makes the call based on that info. U3 may know at the time that the angle is bad and may go ahead and ask for help at the conclusion of the play or the coach may come out and ask U3 to get help based on the fact that U3 had a bad angle on the play.

This is NOT an appeal play.

I had a similar play in a high school game using 2-man mechanics this weekend. R1 at 3B, BU (me) between 2B and 3B to the 3B side of F6. Ground ball to F6. I move as much as possible toward 1B for the call which since F6 is fielding the ball is not to much. F6's throw is a bit wide of 1B and F3 does a great job of catching the ball while falling to her right and stretching a toe out toward 1B.

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

Why not just go into your partner immediately rather than making a call that you may wind up changing? Just point to your partner and say "Was her foot on the base?" I've seen this done dozens of times and it works a lot better than reversing a call, regardless of who prompts it.

UmpireErnie,

I do not disagree with how you handled the play. Are you aware, though unless they have changed its mechanics, Federation allows the umpire to go for help immediately without making a safe or out call first?

ASA, we do it how you did it. When I have a good pregame, we go over this play and how we will do it.

Thanks, Ron

Just a thought. What hppens if the plate ump takes his eyes off the play at first to see the runner from 3b touch home and the bu says pulled foot? Crew might look a little amateur at that point.

I don't buy your perception belief as there is no conversation from that coach other than requesting you go for help.

Couldn't agree more on this. You call what your eyes tell your brain occurred. You do not have the luxury of stopping the play, see if your partner had a view of the play AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED, not when you looked and then decide to make the call or give it up. If you see the play, you call the play. If you don't call the play and your partner did not see the play, you have only one result and that is a safe call even though everyone else saw the ball beat the runner by three strides and F3 was touching the base.

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

I cover this in our pregame. I also expect the plate umpire to pay attention to the actual play that exists, that being the one at first base.

The reality is that everyone will be watching the play at first and no one pays attention to R3 touch home, at least not when there is a potential problem with the play at first. I would also expect that the plate umpire would line himself up properly and would be able to see both.

This is a far better technique than making a call and then having to stop play to talk about it. You may end up having to place runners, you may put other runners in jeopardy, etc. It's just a big, unnecessary mess.

If we can still "go for help" on a check swing when a runner is stealing, I think umpires can walk and chew gum at the same time at be able to see a runner step on a plate and still pay attention to first base. If the umpire can't, they we need to do a better job training them.

I could not find it either. I thought I had read it in 2008. I guess I confused that with the way the the state interpretar taught us how to do it in Maryland. The UIC for our local association has told us we can go directly to the plate umpire.

What does the college mechanic teach nc2a guys?

thanks, ron

NCAA says to go immediately.

It is on the back page of this years NFHS Preseason Guide for Softball. Again, don't like the idea as the required response is "safe" if there is no help from the PU even though that may be the incorrect call.

Two years ago (2010) the subject covered almost two pages in the Manual the most salient points to the OP being:

"Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
>When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make a judgement.
>When they have a doubt.
>When doubt has been created."

"If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision."

"If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited go to your partner for the information needed."

This season it's down to a paragraph in which the first three sentences read...

"The are times by rule and circumstance that umpires need to ask for help. Going for help does not destroy an umpire's credibility, but allows an umpire to receive a piece of information that was missed when rendering a call. Anytime an umpire seeks help from a partner that partner must have a credible position to give assistance on the call."

Not true
 

There are times when a pulled foot at first is not the plate umpires primary responsibility. If you have the winning run at home in the bottom of the 7th of a tie ball game, you better believe the umpire better make sure R1 touches home. Also, the distance of the two bases makes it oftentimes impossible to get a good angle to see both. This is not something you should rely on your peripheral vision to pick up. I prefer the ASA mechanic on this.

And the substantive difference in removing all that prior language? The new NCAA SUP staff that started AFTER the 2010 manual edition DOESN'T agree that the umpire with primary responsibility should turn to an unexpecting umpire with other responsibilities and only secondary (assistance) on this call and should relinquish that call.

So, they didn't reverse the language, they simply eliminated it (leaving one who has read earlier language to wonder what the mechanic is).

From the very top, the preference is for the primary calling umpire to make a call; THEN seek the piece of information that may be missing. The timing is critical in many cases, as subsequent action can be strongly affected by a delayed call resulting from "handing off" your call. Players and teams are used to the coach requesting "go for help" after a play, and they are less affected by that, than a delay in the initial call with subsequent play relying on a first call.

I sat and listened to DV (new staff) and EA (old staff) agree to disagree on this.

Thanks to the guys who gave info on the ncaa mechanic.

I was not thinking of the exact play but something similar. Well said.

+1

If the plate umpire takes a position on 1st base line extended, how could he not possibly see both a runner stepping on home plate and still have a view of first base? He's looking along the same angle. There's no "peripheral vision" involved.

That must have been a very enlightening and interesting discussion.

Steve, check your PM's.

Simple Physics
 

One base is 60 feet away. The other is 5 feet away. Even if you get back to the back stop, home plate and first base will not be on the same plane. You will not be able to line the two up. Hence, one base will be more outside your direct line of sight.

Simple Geometry
 

Only because I'm an engineer:

Geometry dictates that three points define a plane, no physics is involved. Therefor the umpire, plate, and 1B are always in the same plane, no matter where you stand. However hp and 1B may not be along your line of sight, as you stated. ;)

I agree, you can not definitively see both if they occur simultaneously, even if you stand first base line extended. Touching hp is the primary call, pulled foot is secondary for the plate umpire.

You haven't called on some of the fields I have had to call on. Sometimes home and first are definitely on different planes! LOL!