Tie goes to...

[BigUmpJohn]

This question was taken from a baseball thread, but I wanted to see what softball blues think about it.

I know that there is in reality no such things as ties. You're either safe or out. But, since we don't have the help of instant replay, if we do see a virtual tie (i.e.: 1B), who gets the call... the runner or the defense?

I've always thought it was the runner, but the runner does have to BEAT the throw to be safe. If there is a tie, the runner did not BEAT the throw, therefore they are out.

Just wondering what the general concensus is before I have to make a close call again.

Thanks.

[WestMichBlue]

There are no ties! Either the runner gets there first, or the ball does. That's what you get the big bucks for - your judgment.

Having said that, when it is awful close, my natural reaction is to call SAFE. I don't know why, I just do it. I don't think about it, it happens automatically.

Conversely, I've seen umpires that call all close plays OUT. I guess that it's just who you are, and what internal triggers you have. I am not sure that you can train yourself to evaluate those calls; I think that it's your natural reaction and "you make the call."

WMP

[Dakota]

The tie goes to the umpire.

Some guidelines I use...

Don't guess the out (tends to favor the "tie goes to the runner" myth).

Give the benefit of the doubt to the team that made the best play

and/or

give the benefit of the doubt to the other team than the one who muffed the play & made what should have been routine close.

[SC Ump]

NFHS Softball

Rule 8
SECTION 2 BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
ART. 2... After hitting a fair ball the batter-runner is legally put out prior to reaching first base.

SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT
ART. 3... On a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, touches the ball to the base or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base.

[Emphasis mine.]

This wording would make the tie go to the batter-runner or runner.

Many other organizations as well as most baseball organization have the same wording for the batter-runner, but for the runner it is worded like OBR 7.08e: A runner is out when "He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner." This wording would mean the runner is out on a tie.

Note: If I see the foot at the same time I hear the ball, considering that light travels faster than sound, it is obvious that the ball must have gotten there before the foot and thus on what is perceived as a tie must be an out.

[kono]

Originally posted by Dakota
The tie goes to the umpire.

...

Give the benefit of the doubt to the team that made the best play

Those are the guidelines I use.

Batter legs out what should have been a routine ground out - safe!!!

F6 makes a spectacular diving stop, fires to F3 on one knee - out!!!!

-Kono

[jhawley]

The tie goes to the ump!! When in doubt...it's an OUT. I tell all of my umpires this "rule-of-thumb". But you must SELL a banger call.

[bobbrix]

that's funny, jhawley, i read somewhere the other day (maybe on this forum) the OPPOSITE saying:

" if in doubt, never out "


for me, so far, i've been going with kono's method ... giving it to the player i felt deserved it ... not the best method, but i do sell the call when i make it

technically, it seems to me that the runner has to beat the catch (so there can't be a tie where you call the runner safe)

[IRISHMAFIA]

The "call" is simple:

If the runner beats the ball, it belongs to the runner;
if the ball beats the runner, it belongs to the defense;
if they both get there at the same time, it belongs to me!

[BigUmpJohn]

Thanks everyone.

So, what you guys are saying is that if there is a "tie", I go with the player that made the best play (throwing or running out the ground ball). That makes sense. Another one of those "unwritten rules" that I still need to learn. Thanks.

[mdntranger]

Being in a 1-umpire system, I don't necessarily get to see the entire play and make the who made the best play judgement. IMO, that really shouldn't have any bearing on the call you make anyway. Does the fielder who makes a spectacular dive but have a fly ball bounce right in front of the glove and into the mitt still get the out? I try and make the best judgement call that I can based on what I see. If I start hearing the 'tie goes to the runner' line, I usually tell them there is no such thing as a tie and let it go at that. I really haven't had any major arguments calling the close plays this way.

[Dakota]

It's not so much about avoiding arguments as about what do you do when what you saw, and your mental replay, says "tie?" You have to have some way of breaking the tie in order to make the call. We don't have benefit of instant replay.

Sure, with a one umpire game you will miss some of the goings-on, but for most plays, I can see enough to make the judgment.

And, it's in the final analysis, judgment.

[ChampaignBlue]

I think that we're giving ourselves just a little too much credit here. In my experience when you have the proverbial tie you'd better be "selling" that call and part of selling it is to not hesitate. I don't think I could go through the process of A:Who made the better play or B:Who got the last one fast enough to save myself the grief of appearing to hesitate. Clearly on an out you have a time delay while you determine that the fielder held the ball but even then your body language, looking for the ball or pointing at the tag is alerting the crowd to what is following. So for me the call on a "tie" is what ever comes out first. Jim

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I'm not trying to confuse the issue... but I don't look to see which gets there first (ball or runner).

In this timing play I look for one thing (For me, it's easier that way). I follow the throw and watch it arrive. At that instant, I look to see where the runner is located. If the runner has arrived, I've got a safe call. Not arrived... obviously an out.

As for the differences in speed of sound and sight, I think engineering-wise you would have a tough time noting the difference. Sound - approximately 800 miles per hour. From 15 feet away, sound would require slightly less than 2/100th of a second to travel the distance. Light - 186,000 MPH. From any reasonable umpiring distance, instantaneous or zero. Ball speed - maybe 90 MPH. Time to travel from the front of the mitt to the pocket of the mitt (3 inches) not quite 2/100th of a second. Do you make the call when you see (light) the ball touch the front of the mitt or only when you hear (sound) it reach the pocket? Ohhh and there is that runner speed too - 20 MPH. I'm being facetious. Har-har.

I don't see ties. If you do, you're going to confuse yourself.

In my opinion, there is no room for ties. If you don't see the runner safe, call an out.

[SamNVa]

To (mis)quote the famous(?) Jimmy Dugan, "There's no tying in softball."

I have to disagree a little bit with Jim (ChampaignBlue) though. The one thing you don't want to do on a close play is make the call too quickly. I think that you should give yourself time to run through the play in your imnd's eye to be sure of what you saw which can take 2-3 seconds then come up with the BIG sell call.

SamC

[bobbrix]

ok, i found it ... here's that opposite rule-of-thumb post (re: jhawley)

so, when teaching umpires, it might be unwise to bias them one way or the other on this issue ... better to get them to to reason out their own judgements

this is copied from another umpire site, at http://www.amateurumpire.com/others/jb/jb01.htm , written by a fellow called Joel Balberman


#7 TIE GOES TO THE RUNNER
It is commonly believed that there is a rule, unwritten or otherwise that tells umpires how to call the close ones. That belief is that a tie on a force out should result in a safe call. As umpires we make decisions on every play. We cannot say: That was too close. It's a tie! The choices are twofold: out or safe. The runner either beat the play being made on him/her or he/she didn't.

It a well known joke that there is only one way to call the close one - out! Why? It helps to get the game over with faster. Obviously, this is not the way we should be operating as umpires.

A better rule-of-thumb might be: If in doubt, never out.

This may be a new way of thinking about close plays for some of us. It is worthy of some thought. There is another way of looking at these plays as well: Did the throw beat the runner to the bag? Did the runner clearly beat the throw? If not, the call is easy.


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regards ... bob