Mechanics review
 

Just to refine and clarify mechanics as written, not to debate the merits of any instruction or one book versus the other.
Main interest NFHS/ASA, but add NCAA if you like.

Are these really taboos?
- calling OBS at a base by the PU
- calling OBS at HP by the BU

- BU calling infield fly
- BU signaling but not calling infield fly

- PU making a call at 3rd from slightly in foul ground
- Same, runner returning after rounding

Multiple runners, lead runner to 3rd, no play at home:
- second play; PU or not
- first play after possible play at 1st not made; PU or not

Are you just asking us to vote our opinions?

ASA:
Are these really taboos?
- calling OBS at a base by the PU - NO
- calling OBS at HP by the BU - YES

- BU calling infield fly - YES
- BU signaling but not calling infield fly - NO

- PU making a call at 3rd from slightly in foul ground - Depends on the call in question and the situation
- Same, runner returning after rounding - ditto

Multiple runners, lead runner to 3rd, no play at home:
- second play; PU or not - I pregame this, every game.
- first play after possible play at 1st not made; PU or not - First play is BU's (assuming 1st play not at plate)

Although what I expected, I am surprised at everyone's complete agreement.
Please expand on those above.

How do you handle this?
B slot, runner goes to 2nd on passed ball. Do you continue to C immediately or stay at 2nd and actually wait for ball back to pitcher?

The first play, I'm not sure what situation you are referring to - PU could be at 3rd for a number of reasons, and could be right on the play, or 50 feet away - so my answer depends on what kind of play you're referring to.

The second one, I ALWAYS include in the pregame that I, as PU, will cover the 2nd play at 3rd if BU is taken to 1st for the 1st play. As BU, I describe the scenario to partner and get his input (sometimes they do it, sometimes they don't like it and expect BU to take both calls). It may not be ASA standard, but it's at least 50/50 here, so I want to make sure I'm on the same page as partner.

I know it's not standard, but I'm seeing it more lately --- I rim the infield on this play, getting to the SS side of the bag ahead of the runner (but not all the way to C yet), watching ball, pitcher primarily and watching for the touch of 2nd and/or obstruction by glancing over.

On a PB where there will be no play on the runner coming in to 2B I do this as well. If she continues on to 3B I am ready to follow, and if there is a throw to 2B to try to pick her off rounding too far I am in the correct spot for the possible tag call as she dives back into 2B.

Stay with the runner by rounding the base. If there is going to be a play there, this will give you the perfect view of the front edge of the base.

Inside?
 

Does anyone cut inside behind the runner as she approaches 2nd?

Not on that play.

And step in front of a possible throw?

If she continues on to third, isn't that PU's coverage?

OP stipulated no possible throw.

And the umpire would know that how? Just because there is no immediate play does not mean the catcher will not try to throw behind the runner rounding or that the pitcher will not try to pick-off the runner if she is off the base when the ball is received in the circle.

I'll come inside....kind of. I like to come in after the runner passes, then close down to second base on a direct line from 1st. That gives a great angle for a possible pick off on an over run (90º to the tag). Watch the ball go back to P then move to the C position.

Hugo's question:

"If she continues on to third, isn't that PU's coverage?"

Maybe........Situation is single runner on first advancing to second on a PB, then to third. Have got to pre game this every time and watch for your partner. Typically, I take all single runners to third, even on PB situations. Plate umpire may be blocked, especially if the PB goes to the 3rd base side. Plate may be unable to go to third without risking getting into the play. Better to plan on covering from the base side as you don't have anything else going on.

Fair enough, but there's no such play where no throw is "possible".

I've seen clinicians teach that you reach your position you would to make a call on a sliding runner into 2nd, and if it develops to third, you continue on the inside track toward 3rd. I don't like this advice. That's an awful position for a snap return throw if she doesn't end up going for 3rd, I no longer have the ball in my peripheral vision, etc. LOTS of reasons not to do that. Staying outside keeps everything in your vision, keeps you out of the play, gives you optimum positioning for any of the possible developing plays.

(As to PU taking the throw to 3rd, if not pre-gamed, no way, and if I'm BU, that won't be part of it. I have, however, taken this in pre-game as PU, especially with older BU's, or if they've had several games and I have not.)

B slot, runner goes to 2nd on passed ball. Do you continue to C immediately or stay at 2nd and actually wait for ball back to pitcher?

Where?

Isn't there still a possible play at 2nd until the ball is in the circle? Runners round, or step off, and defenses occasionally throw behind.

Until this play sequence has ended, you have no reason to move to an initial position for the NEXT pitch. Once the ball is in the circle, you have plenty of time to move to your next position.

Where? 90 to the possible tag (back into 2nd from 3rd) inside/out to the location of the ball..

That said, if there is no defensive player in position to make a possible play back into 2nd (they all moved on), no sense standing there pointing like a bird dog, either (unless an NCAA TV or evaluation game).

Thanks to those who posted helpful answers and the rebuttals of non-hepful. :cool:
I think what you said is what i've been doing, by instinct, not thought. :)

How about this? BU in A when batter walks.

Why is there an objection to the BU moving off the line into the infield before the BR gets to 1st? Or, is there really a taught objection (as "honor the runner")?
It seems to me moving off the line is better prep for an advance/attempt to 2nd.

If this is an item, is it an NCAA thing?

We have one guy that waits - I asked him why and he didn't know why. Everyone else I know moves toward (but not TO) B as BR is heading to first.

It is an NCAA mechanic based on the three umpires system (the NCAA manual standard). When B walks with no runners on, U1 doesn't have 2nd base responsibility, U3 does (same as base hit when B becomes a BR). And BR can legally and safely overrun 1st, but is in jeopardy if she turns toward 2nd. Where is that next likely play? 90 to the base on the edge facing 2nd, and that is the proper positioning for the next likely play. Only after BR (now R) stops and this play ends should U1 take the position for the next play.

With R1 on 2nd, and U3 in B, U1 should still hold until all play has ended; standard rotaion has PU covering 3rd, U3 holding at 2nd, U1 holding at 1st with possible rotation to cover home.

With R1 on 3rd, U1 DOES have BR to 2nd, and must be prepared for that play. Then, and only then, is U1 to consider moving further off the line to prepare for that possible (1st and 3rd) play.

In the two umpire system, BU always has BR to 2nd; and should react accordingly,same as R1 on 3rd in 3 umpire system. Staying fully on the line in the two umpires system doesn't follow the NCAA guideline to prepare for the next possible play until each play has ended. It can only stem from those confusing 3 umpire mechanics with 2 umpire mechanics.

That makes sense ... knowing the guy who does that in our league, he probably either saw it on TV during an NCAA game and decided, "well, that's what they do in college, so that's what I should do", or someone else was describing the mechanic in NCAA and he decided to "big-time" it and adopt the mechanic.

Wouldn't be the first time...

So, the only time U1 should stay at the line for a BB/HBP etc. is in 3 umpire mechanics.

The ball is dead on the HBP - no need to stay on the line in 2 umpire mechanics.

For 2-ump mechanics, on a BB with no runners, we teach BU to move into fair territory about a step or two and observe the BR until she stops at 1B.

That's the way I do it. As soon as the runner stops on first, I move to B position. Dave

only moving 1 or 2 steps fair leaves you chasing the runner is she doesnt decide to stop and takes off for second base. i think it would be prefered move toward and be close to the B position while keeping your eyes on the runner as she nears first base

I disagree. It is completely age/player dependant, but in my experience the preponderance of players that walk, will round 1B and return or just stop on 1B. The most likely play will be a throw to F3 in an attempt to pick off the runner that is rounding 1B. A very small minority of players that receive a base on balls will continue to 2B - and those are usually with a runner on 3B.

I cannot recall the last time (any age, kids to HS) I've seen a pickoff attempted after a base on balls. That said, moving just 2 steps off the A position leaves you in a great place for that play should it develop, as you've said, but in a problematic place should the play go to 2nd. Moving further (halfway to B, say) decreases your situation for that rare play at first only a very very little bit, while vastly increasing your situation for the possible play at 2nd.

yyeeeeaaahh! :cool:

i agree..it puts you in a reasonable position for either play

is this inconsistent?
 

We are taught to squat straight up and down behind the plate to maintain view and to be easier on our backs. Also, to walk the line, but not bend when at 1st.
But then, we are taught when in B or C on bases with runners to bend down into a "set" position.

Isn't that inconsistent, straight up is better, bending down is better? :confused:
If not, why not?

BTW, has anyone proven that the "set" position actually improves movement or is it just for looking involved?

3-ump mechanics
 

For ASA 3-ump, what are the positions between innings for the umps?

I'll assume PU & 1U are in the same positions as 2-ump mechanics. What about 3U?

I looked in the book last evening, but couldn't locate anything on between inning mechanics/positioning. Is it in there?

Thanx.

Mirror other BUYou mean you didn't get the Supplemental Umpire Manual? ;):D

BU in C in 2 ump system, F3 swipe tags BR, BU blocked.
Is this
- BU makes a call, then asks like pulled foot
- BU communicates to PU to make the call
- it is automatic PU call because BU is in C
?

I guess I have always heard up the the running lane (first 30 feet) a tag is PU's to call, between there and the base is BU's to call. So if after the 30 feet BU should call what they saw, if they saw a tag call the out, if they didn't signal safe. Then after the play if there is a question go to your partner and see what they had if you need to.

Speaking ASA, you either make the call or give it up. Remember, if you are in the C, the PU very likely has something else to watch especially with 2 outs.

R1 on 1st, ball hit in infield, throw goes to 1st.
- As PU, are you watching for OBS at 2nd?

- As BU, do you move immediately past 2nd w/o waiting for F1 to have ball in circle?

- As BU, if ball at 1st is overthrow, do you immediately get inside?
- As PU, where are you then?

I do these, just wondering if universal and taught.

1) Yes, although my eyes are at 1st (pulled foot, swipe tag) briefly at the moment the ball is getting there.
2) I rim, but yes.
3) Depends on where the ball goes - the next throw could be to 2nd or 3rd. Inside could leave you vulnerable, depending on where the ball goes.
4) Depends on what my partner does. Halfway to third on most overthrows at least until my partner has gotten into position for that call, at which point I'm slowly coming back home. Also depends on how far the ball gets away - if I read any chance for the next play being at home, I'm heading home. On tiny overthrows or drops, I'm staying near 3rd (where I was in the first place).

I try to watch what is happening at second. Especially on a bunt. We have several teams around here that teach the runner to cut inside second without touching it to try to advance to third if no defender is covering third. I can't tell you how many times I have seen this, but I can tell you how many times I have had to rule on an appeal of the runner missing second base - none.

No, I wait until the ball is back in the circle and the runners have completed their running.
BU - Yes, I try to if I can do it before the runner turns and heads to second.
PU - Cutting diagonally across the infield to cover third base.

All above, if it is obstruction, you call the obstruction. Don't be lazy.

Quote:

B) Poss pickoff sit, F3 or F4 straddling 1st, which are OBS to call: 1 - 2nd base side of base 2 - over the fair/white side 3 - over the foul/color side 4 - feet anywhere with body over the base

Each issue is irrelevant. If the runner is impeded by a player not in possession of the ball, it is obstruction.

:d

A - I'll hang the arm out - you may or may not hear the verbal. But call the obstruction every time there is obstruction.

B - If the runner is obstructed, call it - every time.

At every level, on every case where runner is (even minimally) hindered, put the arm out. I don't verbal, unless there is a play where it has an affect. In rec or other lower level, will discuss with coaches when opportune. I am a believer that umpires often teach the game to players and coaches (just not at a time that gives one team an advantage).

If OC or runner is paying attention, and know what to do; they deserve the protection between bases. If they don't; oh well, I did my job.

1 - call it. Why would you not?
2 - call it. Why would you not?
3 - call it. Why would you not?

Huh? I don't know ... what did the runner do?

Gotta agree with the crowd here.....

I would at minimum, signal the obstruction in all of the A) situations

I need to see what happened with the runner in the B) situations

I guess I'm not sure what you are looking for here. The fielders position has ZERO to do with whether I would call OBS or not. Granted their are positions that make OBS more likely, but a fielders position alone will NOT get an OBS call. The runner has to be hindered or impeded to get an obstruction call.

Lets say this runner is leading off at an angle toward right center to have a path to round 2nd base on a deep hit, they may come back to 1B behind that fielder that has both feet on the 2B side of 1B and not be hindered or impeded at all, so no obstruction call. Conversely they may be completely behind the base but R1's chosen path to return to 1B has to be altered to get back to 1B, in this case I have obstruction.

Again, not sure what point you are trying to make (but would like to understand) but position of the fielder alone should never draw an automatic OBS call. And positioning of the fielder should never protect them from having OBS called on them. Bottom line any time a fielder without possession of the ball, and not in the act of fielding a batted ball (ASA) (or making an initial play, in NFHS) hinders or impedes a runner obstruction should be called.

Well... honestly, if these are the things you are thinking about, comparing and contrasting, etc, when deciding whether or not to call obstruction, I am not sure you are being correctly told when to call it. No offense intended.

The first set of 3 (the ones you didn't repost) are obstruction every day and twice on Sunday. Call any of those situations every single time. Without thinking about it. Period. Granted - 90% of the time (or more) it will not matter at all that you called it. But for those 10% you better have called it when it happened, and not tried to retroactively call it. Besides, on the occasion that the defense does these things and you call it, the offense is allowed to try to capitalize, if they are paying attention. If you refuse to call it because you believe it's not going to matter, you take away that right.

The second set of 4 - as several have pointed out - the thing you are trying to differentiate is COMPLETELY irrelevant. You can have #1 (which appears to be the most likely to be OBS) not be obstruction at all. You can have #4 (apparently the least likely) and have obstruction. You can have a fielder BEYOND the base, and have it still be obstruction (rare, but possible). Where, in relation to the base, she's standing is NOT what the umpire should be worried about.

I think what bothers me most is this: This sounds like baseball thinking to me. Don't think base-blocking. Think RUNNER-blocking or hindering.

Regarding this: You say right there that there was a hindrance... THAT IS OBSTRUCTION.

Problem is you are taking something that is very, VERY simple and asking people to consider irrelevant data in the application of the rule. Why convolute such a simple issue? Isn't it bad enough ASA already causes issues referring to the base in the RS without umpires perpetuating the misconception that a defender's position at the base has any valid meaning?

Question in relation to ASA obstruction.

R1 on first, Pitcher starts the pitch, F3 moves in between R1 and the pitcher to hinder R1 from knowing when the ball is released hindering R1 from breaking for second on a steal.

Do you have obstruction?

No.
If you do, sell it to me. Explain how F3 impeded the progress of R1...

Please keep this a mechanics thread, not rules. :)

No offense intended here, but how is his question any different in this regard from yours where you posted 7 scenarios and asked if we would call obstruction?

Mike, you are correct and definitely not offending. I realized that as soon as I saw Rabbitt's question and just hoped not to have all perpetuate my mistake. I'll try to find time to reconstruct as a separate thread.

I reposted my starter on this in a thread called "about OBS calls".

I will delete my part of this from this thread and hope all do likewise.

THANK YOU ! !

nitty gritty
 

Just some little things, base on ASA 2 umps; but add NFHS & NCAA if you like.

A) agree or disagree
BU in B slot, pop up to SS pretty deep, this is a time to ignore inside/outside to avoid throwing lane

B) agree or disagree
Assuming PU is covering 3rd even if first play if from the outfield; it is still from the outfield if a relay by SS

C) R1 going home, R2 to 3rd, other runner(s):
How do you as BU judge whether PU is needed at home or should cover 3rd?
Please say if Q too cryptic/simplistic (politely of course). ;)

Huh? No. Don't ignore it. Stay outside.

Of course.

No need for me, as BU, to need to judge. Someone is going home... PU stays home. Period. I have everything else.

The need I meant is judging when the PU is no longer needed at HP, so both don't call the play at 3rd. Is it just dependent on the PU communicating or do you have a criteria for observation by the BU?
Or, are you saying that anytime there is a runner going home on a play, the PU "never" leaves for 3rd, even after the runner scores? Ignore TWP and where the throw goes for now.

In ASA and Fed mechanics, you do move inside. You have to be aware not to be in the throwing lane, therefore a bit deeper in the infield than usual depending. For NCAA, you can read the play from either an inside or outside position.

And one more time to pick the nit: no softball organization labels starting positions by letters. If you say "two umpire system, runner on first" we know where you start. BTW, most umpire do not start in a good position with a runner on first, they are too far back, but that's a different thread.

"First play from the outfield" is a meaningless phrase in softball. We have "first play in the infield" for runners at third.

PU has responsibilities at third with the exceptions of a) first play in the infield, b) steal of third, c) Batter/Runner and d) when a throw going home is cut off and thrown to third.

Well, as my last answer (see PU responsibilities at third), for ASA and Fed mechanics, you stay in the holding zone (between third and home) and read the throw. If the throw is directly to third, you move to a calling position at third. If the throw is home and/or cut, you stay at home (see above). For NCAA two umpires (looking in the three umpire section when a BU chases), it is the same as ASA/Fed with one exception: if there are two outs, PU stays home, BU has all bases.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves when working with some umpires. They fail to cover third and stay at the plate without even reading the play. I hear "well, a throw could come home" or (my personal fav) "I have to watch the runner touch the plate."

Well, there's always an exception to "never", right? :)

R3 only; Batter hits an apparent triple. PU can cover 3rd. However, as BU, I'm expecting to cover all 3 bases unless I hear my partner say he's got 3rd. In the sitch you actually asked, though... PU has home for R1, and then has to stay home for R2 as well. Besides, I'm in C - so I'm already closer to 3rd anyway. Barring a rundown, I cannot envision a play with multiple runners other than the one I just mentioned where PU would leave home.

A) there are some hits that, as the national staff describes them, are tweeners, it's inbetween the infield and the outfield. This is what this scenario sounds like to me so you read the play and react to it. Most likely as you are describing it (or as I am seeing it anyway) this play would be best to stay outside.

B) Agreed, you have to believe your partner will cover their responsibilities and you should cover yours. Now glancing to make sure never hurt but yes you should believe they are going to do their job.

C) By the book PU should be there unless there is a throw that takes them home. BU by the book covers a play on a lead runner at 3B if there is a throw that is returning from home, or cut off while on it's way to home and then thrown to 3B to make a play. In a follow up thread you asked to not worry about if there was a throw, well you can't disreguard this fact since it changes the coverage. Ex. If bases are loaded and there is a base hit to the outfield the PU should move into the holding zone and read the play being ready to move into position at 3B or home depending on what happens. IF there is going to be a play at the plate then PU needs to move toward the plate and take that play, any subsquent play on a throw being returned to 3B from the plate area will be the BU's call on R2. Now if R1 is going to score with no play the PU should stay in the holding zone and see the touch of home over their shoulder while preparing for a play at 3B on another lead runner. So the quick answer to your question is, if there is a play at the plate (which could just be a throw to the plate) on a lead runner, then as a BU you know you have to cover a return throw to 3B on another runner. If there isn't a play/throw toward home then by the book PU should have that play at 3B. Still always a good idea to look, could be possible PU got fooled and thought there was a play developing at plate and you may be in a better position to take the call but as always this is a deviation so COMMUNICATE and make sure it's clear you are taking that call at 3B.

+1. (especially as it relates to "c"