Dirt and the ball
 

Pitcher takes ball and rubs the ball on the dirt. What do you do, if anything?

High school rules. Please use rule.

Thank you.

Rita

Do you 'do anything' any other time the ball rubs on the dirt? :D

That's not helpful.

Call time. Walk out to the pitcher and tell her not to do that again and give her a different ball. Tell her coach. Return the ball to the home coach if you judge it has been defaced and get a replacement. If she repeats doing it again eject.

ART. 6 . . . Any defacing, treatment or device that would change the ball spec-
ifications listed in 1-3-3 are prohibited and render the ball illegal.

Paul

Have you ever seen a ball DEFACED by dirt? Which "specification" was changed?

Normal wear and tear of the ball is one thing, purposely grinding the ball into the ground is defacing the ball.

Then why does MLB change change them out once they are fouled into the dirt?

Must just be a "clone" thing huh?

I thought it was.

I agree, but she said rub - and I take her at her word. Grinding or something prolonged that I think may damage the ball, I would address as above.

Just rubbing it? That's nothing.

Nice try.

So a "dirty ball" is not defaced?

I fail to see how rubbing a little dirt on a ball is going to change the size, COR, compression, or the weight & circumference of the ball.

Placing rock resin doesn't change any of those either (at least not making it outside acceptable tolerances) but it still changes the ball, makes it easier to grab so it's illegal. Same concept here scuffing it a precise manner that allows the pitcher to get a better grip to throw a more wicked (choose pitch) is an advantage and illegal by rule.

I agree, Dave. The point I was was trying to make was that applying 1-3-6 is, I think, incorrect. I feel that 6-2-2 is a little more accurate. Just my humble opinion.

I actually address this with HS coaches when I see it during their scrimmages/play days.

The OP clearly indicates the ball being rubbed in the dirt. I've even seen pitchers drop the ball and stand on the ball and move their feet to grind the ball into the ground.

As the umpire in a game I would stop them immediately and instruct them to not do it again.

I will inspect the ball and either keep it or replace it. I will then instruct the coach that if their player believe the ball to be too slippery, I will be more than happy to rub it down, or maybe have them rub it down in their hands. If they want to use dirt, I don't have a problem with that as long as all they are doing is rubbing it down, not marking or scraping it.

I make it clear to the coaches that any player found to be doing so after our little talk will need to find a seat on the bench.

I think the issue in the OP isn't so much the dirt, but how the pitcher was attempting to scuff up the ball.

That is the way I read the original post.

I would check the ball, tell the pitcher not to do that again, let her know that if she has a problem with the ball to let me know and I'll take care of it.

Hmm, to remove it would mean to say that the action was illegal. Where does it say to issue a warning and take the ball from the pitcher? Or are you just making that up because you think it's the right thing to do even if there is no rules support?

You impress me with your Carnegie skills.
I am sure you are a joy to work with, young man.

BINGO .....I was holding off thinking that maybe I was misreading your posts....


But now, I am leaning towards thing that you truely are on here just to raise stink and pick fights.

People regularly ask me to quote specific areas of a rule book and bash anything that isn't spelled out in black and white. They all want "rule book support." So now I'm asking for it. It's hypocritical to just complain that I am asking for it.

Umpire12, despite his use of the word "Bingo," I'm pretty sure Hugo's post was aimed at someone else . . . .

Show me where it says it is illegal.

Show me the rule that says I cannot.

Again, citations. Show me where it says anything I did could not be done.

By taking the ball away, you're saying that the pitcher can't do it. If she can do it, then you wouldn't be taking the ball away. Where does it say you can issue warnings for actions you deem to be violations?

Interesting how to change things to "show me where it says I can't" now that the tables are turned. :rolleyes:

Just what I thought, no rules, just personal opinion. Yet you wanted me to provide citations.

BTW

F.Y.I. 1.3.6 renders the ball illegal. However, if a pitch hasn't been thrown with the ball, I get rid of the ball.



10.2.3.f gives the umpire that authority to deal with it and 3.6.1 helps with that

So you choose to ignore the rule. How would you handle it if the pitcher clearly rubbed the ball up with dirt, you go out to change the ball, and the offensive coach requests that an illegal pitch be called? By rule, this is an illegal pitch. Would you call it? How would you handle a protest? Are there any other illegal pitches you would choose not to call?

ASA Casebook Play 6.6-3 reads, F5 rubs dirt on the ball and gives it to F1
to pitch. Ruling: Illegal Pitch. If a player continues to place an illegal
substance on the ball, the player should be ejected from the game. 6-6A Effect.

Oddly enough, 2012 ASA Umpire Exam Alternate Fast Pitch question 15 reads "A pitcher picks up dirt with the pitching hand and does not wipe the dirt off
before pitching. This is an illegal pitch." The Answer key reads, FALSE. 6-6A
FP & MP.

Two different scenarios. In the first, the dirt is being "rubbed" into the ball. In the second, the dirt was only in the hand, and nothing is mentioned about the dirt being rubbed into the ball.

I see no inconsistencies there.

That's nice, but the discussion is HS ball.

Hey, bubba, this isn't chancery. You are making a lot of claims, but no rule to support it. Hmmm....where have I heard that before? :rolleyes:

If there is no rule support, why are you taking the ball from the pitcher?

If she didn't do something wrong, then leave the ball the hell alone.

It may be odd, but it is a published ASA interpretation and thus the correct answer.

Placing the dirt directly on the ball is interpreted as "applying a foreign substance". Using dirt on the hand is interpreted as using "an approved drying agent" and does not require the pitcher to wipe off her hand before touching the ball.

Having said that...would you not consider rubbing the ball in the dirt as applying a foreign substance? :confused:

pitchers HATE brand new slick balls, which is fine.... so what I do with any new balls that havent been rubbed down already.... is rub them down myself ... If I see the pitcher do it, we swap it out for one that is, and I check/rub it myself before returning it to play. No biggie.... no hassle...

Don't you know you are not supposed to be reasonable on this topic? ;)

Here is a suggestion for some to use in their signature:
"I'm not happy, until you're not happy"

I know an assignor that uses that as his motto.

As already stated numerous times.....In a NFHS contest, I would take the ball from the pitcher and give her a new ball. I would inspect the ball and if it is not too scuffed up it goes right back into my ball bag.

I have rarely had this issue as I rub up the balls myself prior to the game.

Joel

I sometimes rub my balls during a game although the cup kind of gets in the way.

Yeah.....damn cup......:cool:

Joel

oops! Sorry!!!!

This is actually quite helpful. My partner told me that dirt wasn't a foreign substance in softball. I couldn't find anything in the NFHS rulebook that supported or denied this statement. Since he also does a lot of ASA, I now know where he got the idea and I see how it is probably an incorrect interpretation on his part.

Thank you.

For the others, there is much more to the story. I kept the question simple to get the facts I needed.

Rita

Since you mentioned ASA, here is the ruling that they published on their website. This was in the "Umpire" section, under the March 2010 "Plays and Clarifications".

Foreign Substances

While traveling around the country to be an instructor at National Umpire Schools, Region Rule clinics or Local Association Umpire Schools it is always interesting to listen to the local umpires talk about rules and rule applications in our great game of Amateur Softball. Throughout the country our umpires ask about rules and plays that come up from time to time. Local umpires talk about rules in a general sense and how those rules apply in our 2010 ASA Umpire Manual Official Rules of Softball. It is refreshing to see umpires dig into the book to understand the intent of a rule and how its application applies to their situations.

One common question from all areas of the country, especially in the game of Fast Pitch but would apply to other games is “By rule, is dirt a foreign substance?” Do you need to wipe off your hand if you pick up dirt and rub it on your hands?” Rule 6, Section 6A. Fast Pitch states that a defensive player shall not at any time during the game be allowed to use a foreign substance upon the ball. Under the supervision and control of the umpire, powder resin and or an approved manufactured drying agent may be used by the pitcher….

Why would we consider dirt, something common to the ground, a” foreign substance”? If a pitcher or any other defensive player picks up dirt and applies it to the ball we say “no”. We do not allow the application of any material to the ball. Players can apply resin to their hand, not to the ball. If a pitcher picks up a handful of dirt or wipes the ground with their hand, then rubs their hands together, there is no foreign substance being transferred. If a defensive player puts dirt in their hand and throws it on the ground, then catches a thrown or batted ball and returns it to the pitcher do we call this illegal? No. Example: If the catcher wipes their hand on the ground before catching the pitch and returns the ball to the pitcher without wiping their hand off do we have a violation of Rule 6? The answer is no. If we do not, then why do umpires from around the country say that the pitcher must wipe their hand off after touching dirt? Our Rule 6 is very specific, it says any “defensive player shall not at any time during a game be allowed to use any foreign substance upon the ball.”

So, if dirt can and has been used as a natural drying agent to dry off the hands, we do not believe it is mandatory for the pitcher to wipe off their hand if they pick up dirt, throw it to the ground or rub it into their hands. We do not allow dirt to be applied directly to the ball just as we do not permit any other substance. Therefore applying dirt to the hand and not wiping the hand off is perfectly legal by ASA Official Rules of Softball.

So, dirt is considered a foreign substance when it is intentionally and purposely applied to the ball by a player. But if the ball gets dirty through normal game play, that isn't illegal. And if a player's hand just happens to be dirty when she touches the ball, that's not a rule violation either.

Well, if you are going to look at ASA, this may help also:


Rule 6, Section 6, Fast Pitch:</SPAN> Foreign Substance:
While traveling around the country to be an instructor at National Umpire Schools, Region Rule clinics or Local Association Umpire Schools it is always interesting to listen to the local umpires talk about rules and rule applications in our great game of Amateur Softball. Throughout the country our umpires ask about rules and plays that come up from time to time. Local umpires talk about rules in a general sense and how those rules apply in our 2010 ASA Umpire Manual Official Rules of Softball. It is refreshing to see umpires dig into the book to understand the intent of a rule and how its application applies to their situations.
One common question from all areas of the country, especially in the game of Fast Pitch but would apply to other games is “By rule, is dirt a foreign substance?” Do you need to wipe off your hand if you pick up dirt and rub it on your hands?” Rule 6, Section 6A. Fast Pitch states that a defensive player shall not at any time during the game be allowed to use a foreign substance upon the ball. Under the supervision and control of the umpire, powder resin and or an approved manufactured drying agent may be used by the pitcher….
Why would we consider dirt, something common to the ground, a” foreign substance”? If a pitcher or any other defensive player picks up dirt and applies it to the ball we say “no”. We do not allow the application of any material to the ball. Players can apply resin to their hand, not to the ball. If a pitcher picks up a handful of dirt or wipes the ground with their hand, then rubs their hands together, there is no foreign substance being transferred. If a defensive player puts dirt in their hand and throws it on the ground, then catches a thrown or batted ball and returns it to the pitcher do we call this illegal? No. Example: If the catcher wipes their hand on the ground before catching the pitch and returns the ball to the pitcher without wiping their hand off do we have a violation of Rule 6? The answer is no. If we do not, then why do umpires from around the country say that the pitcher must wipe their hand off after touching dirt? Our Rule 6 is very specific, it says any “defensive player shall not at any time during a game be allowed to use any foreign substance upon the ball.”
So, if dirt can and has been used as a natural drying agent to dry off the hands, we do not believe it is mandatory for the pitcher to wipe off their hand if they pick up dirt, throw it to the ground or rub it into their hands. We do not allow dirt to be applied directly to the ball just as we do not permit any other substance. Therefore applying dirt to the hand and not wiping the hand off is perfectly legal by ASA Official Rules of Softball.
</SPAN>

[trolling]
So, what if F1 picks up a generous portion of the chalk from the pitcher's circle and lays it all over that beautiful optic yellow orb obliterating some of those lovely red stitches?

Is the chalk a foreign substance? or is it common to the ground?
[/trolling]

When the rule book talks about foreign substances, it isn't refering to substances that are foreign to the field. Sure, you'll find dirt on any field- lots of it. It's refering to substances that are foreign to the ball.

The field might have dirt, mud, grass, clay, chalk, spit or pine tar on it. There's no rule about any of these getting on the ball by chance, through normal game play and use. It's not a rule violation until a defensive player intentionally applies the substance to the ball.

I think that is the distiction that causes so much confusion. People have a hard time wrapping their mind around the concept of something common to any field being interpreted as a foreign substance. A common argument from someone that doesn't get this is, "Are we supposed to call an illegal pitch everytime the ball gets batted through the infield or a pitch bounces in the dirt? After all, the ball has dirt on it and if you consider dirt a foreign substance, that's illegal".

No! The dirt wasn't intentionally put on the ball by a defensive player!

The ASA ruling clarifies that dirt on the hand is treated the same as any other approved drying agent. A pitcher can apply powdered resin to her hand and then grab the ball. She cannot apply the resin directly to the ball. It's the same with dirt.

To the best of my knowledge, NFHS has not issued a similar interpretation for their games. To me, if a pitcher rubs the ball in the dirt I would treat it as a defensive player intentionally applying a foreign substance to the ball.

How FOREIGN could it be? We play on it!

I suppose we could look at it in the same way we look at bat rolling. The end result of rolling is roughly the same as repeated normal use of the bat, but we got there artificially.

Same thing with the ball - she's getting the ball to her desired state by artificial and direct means.

Thank you for illustrating the the ignorant argument I mentioned above.

Is dirt foreign to the field? Of course not.

Is it foreign to the ball? When you open a new ball from the package, is it covered with dirt? Is dirt part of the ball's manufactured characteristics or specifications?

Maybe it would be less confusing if instead of "foreign" we used the term "non-intristic" (then again, maybe not...).

It was sarcasm.

Didn't say it wasn't. Just said that it served to illustrate the argument I've heard many times when discussing dirt as a foreign substance.

Besides, how could the dirt be a foreign substance when we're playing the game right here on good old American soil? ;)

:rolleyes: Imported dirt?

Well, that being said. Every speck of infield dirt is delivered by truck.

I had two games this year played on 99% turf. Only dirt was in front of the pitcher's plate. Hard to rub the ball up with rubber pellets.