Illegal pitch?

[WestMichBlue]

NFHS - opening rounds of H.S. Tournament. Top level big school team, could go fairly deep into tournament. I had this pitcher earlier in the season and the other coaches complained about her pitching. Will probably see her Saturday afternoon in the District Championship game.

F1 lifts her pivot foot heel when she shifts her weight back. This is a technique taught by many pitching coaches. They replant the heel as they shift weight forward, and then drive off the plate.

Problem is that she takes weight off toes and her foot moves. Sometimes her toes come up just a fraction, sometimes a inch or more. (Picture: foot at angle with heel up 2"-4", toes up less.) She then sets (or slides) the foot over the front of the plate so that the toes are down in the depression and only the heel is still on top of the plate.

So she starts with all of her foot on top of the plate, and pushes off with only part of her foot on the plate. (Almost like a baseball pitcher that pushes from the front of the plate.)

Are we getting too technical to call that a replant? These girls have already played 40 games and are now in a "one loss and you're out" run towards the State Championship, and there may be state officials in attendance.

Do you warn them before the game? You know that you're going to get a "nobody's called that all year" response. Do you let it slide and only call it if it is very obvious (ie., toes come up 2")? At this level you can expect the offensive coaches to be complaining to you and demanding that you call it.

I will have the plate for the championship game, and I am excited to have the opportunity. But I know this issue may give me problems.

(BTW - District is 1st round, winners go to Regionals, then Quarter-finals. Then 4 teams from four classes - both baseball and softball - go to one location for State Championship weekend. What a sight - 32 teams, thousands of players and parents and fans - tailgating and food tents and canopies everywhere on the grounds.)

WMB

[Andy]

I have seen pitching techniques similar to this and never seen it called illegal.

If it can be done, all umpires that could potentially work this pitchers games should get together before the tournament with the tournament director and decide exactly how they will call this pitcher's tecnique.

If everybody is calling it the same with the blessing of the tournament director, the other coaches won't have anyone to complain to.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Just my opinion. She is not gaining an advantage with this technique. Legally she should maintain contact throughout the pivot. Now if she were to replant in front of the rubber so nothing is touching (no heel on the rubber)... I think everyone would likely call that.

Lifting and sliding across the rubber probably okay. Would need to see it. And every pitch is not the same: sometimes she will likely lift it 1/4 inch and then next time 3 inches; sometimes she will likely have her arch at the front of the rubber and next time she will be two inches in front of the rubber.

You will have to set your boundaries and keep a constant watch.

[SC Ump]

What you described, I do not believe I would consider illegal.... but a bigger question:

Our top division of schools always have the umpires for the play-offs to come from different divisions than either of the teams, a.k.a no home town umpires. I had to call a game at one particular school where the pitcher pitches illegally.

Previously, I had only called once when she was playing and I ruled her first pitch illegal. The tournament UIC was the BU and, though I am not proud of it, I yielded to his recommendation of allowing her to continue this pitching mechanic because he felt she was gaining no real advantage. He suggested my angle at home was not good. He said she was only slightly crow hopping. I thought, and the drag marks proved, she was replanting about 10-12" in front of the pitching plate.

I'm sure she is always illegal, probably has been for several seasons. After I called her illegal and she tried to stop, she could not. I've had several other coaches tell me that she always pitches that way and no one ever calls it. I even had one coach that I did not know introduce herself to me, shake my hand and thank me because she had heard that I was the one umpire that finally called an illegal pitch on this girl. (The coaches I refer to are highly respected, very knowledgeable coaches.)

So now I get this girl in a playoff game. She is illegal warming up, she is illegal in all her pitches and she is the only real pitcher her team has. I am in a lose/lose situation.

If I do not call the pitches illegal, I am causing an injustice to the visiting team, because they are having to hit pitches that are being delivered from only 39 feet away.

If I do call the pitches illegal, I am causing an injustice to her team, because she is now not allowed to do something that umpires have allowed her to do all season.

My partner and I rode to this game together and had discussed the situation along the way. He said that he would not call it illegal unless the other team started to complain. (I'm not going to judge that attitude; I'm not sure mine was any better.) I decided the lesser of two evils was to allow her to do this since I had specific knowledge that she had indeed been allowed to do this by all the previous umpires calling her games.

I have no problems with my decision there. The problem I have is that I allowed it in the one game early in the season. That is when I should have called it.

I have no answers in this post. Only comments and perhaps a little confession.

[Skahtboi]

I keep hearing people say that they will not call an illegal pitch if the pitcher is not gaining an advantage. Hoping not to offend here (though I probably will), tell me, where in the rule book does it say anything about leaping, replanting, or crow-hopping being illegal "only if the pitcher is gaining an advantage?"

The answer, as we all know, is nowhere. Therefore, as umpires, whether we like it or not, when we see a pitcher who is in violation of the pitching rule, we must call it. At the risk of sounding a little too much like Mike here, let me remind you that we are accepting the paycheck to do only one thing. Enforce the rules. We are not there to enforce only the ones we want to, nor are we there to rewrite the rule book. We are there, plain and simply, to enforce the rules of the association for which we are calling. To do otherwise is not only an injustice to the other members of the profession who do enforce the rules to the letter, but is accepting money under false pretenses.

If somebody had, in the past, the integrity to enforce the pitching rule on the pitcher that SCU mentions, then he wouldn't have felt in the quandry that he did when he knew he should be calling it.

We each must establish our own reputations as officials, for as you well know, all too often our reputations precede us. Do any of us really want to be viewed as an official who is soft on the rules or is easily intimidated? I don't think so. We all put way too much time and energy into this endeavor. I would rather be known as the hard *** umpire who is always fair in administering the rules, rather than everybody's buddy. We must start making the call, whatever it may be, even at the risk "rocking the boat." Until we do, this "look the other way" mentality will prevail.

Thanks for letting me rant.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
I keep hearing people say that they will not call an illegal pitch if the pitcher is not gaining an advantage. Hoping not to offend here (though I probably will), tell me, where in the rule book does it say anything about leaping, replanting, or crow-hopping being illegal "only if the pitcher is gaining an advantage?"

The answer, as we all know, is nowhere. Therefore, as umpires, whether we like it or not, when we see a pitcher who is in violation of the pitching rule, we must call it. At the risk of sounding a little too much like Mike here, let me remind you that we are accepting the paycheck to do only one thing. Enforce the rules. We are not there to enforce only the ones we want to, nor are we there to rewrite the rule book. We are there, plain and simply, to enforce the rules of the association for which we are calling. To do otherwise is not only an injustice to the other members of the profession who do enforce the rules to the letter, but is accepting money under false pretenses.

What a minute! Hmmm....do you owe me royalties for that?

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
NFHS - opening rounds of H.S. Tournament. Top level big school team, could go fairly deep into tournament. I had this pitcher earlier in the season and the other coaches complained about her pitching. Will probably see her Saturday afternoon in the District Championship game.

F1 lifts her pivot foot heel when she shifts her weight back. This is a technique taught by many pitching coaches. They replant the heel as they shift weight forward, and then drive off the plate.

Problem is that she takes weight off toes and her foot moves. Sometimes her toes come up just a fraction, sometimes a inch or more. (Picture: foot at angle with heel up 2"-4", toes up less.) She then sets (or slides) the foot over the front of the plate so that the toes are down in the depression and only the heel is still on top of the plate.

So she starts with all of her foot on top of the plate, and pushes off with only part of her foot on the plate. (Almost like a baseball pitcher that pushes from the front of the plate.)

Are we getting too technical to call that a replant? These girls have already played 40 games and are now in a "one loss and you're out" run towards the State Championship, and there may be state officials in attendance.

Do you warn them before the game? You know that you're going to get a "nobody's called that all year" response. Do you let it slide and only call it if it is very obvious (ie., toes come up 2")? At this level you can expect the offensive coaches to be complaining to you and demanding that you call it.

WMB

Congrats on the plate for the final!
I had my state game over a week ago in the 6A in Tampa

Now, from what you describe I think that you might have a situation where the pitcher is clearing her cleats.
There is a reference in the case book ( I don't have mine handy) that allows for "clearing the cleats" on the other hand, I have personally called the IP for this same action when it was "in my judgement" illegal and not part of anything allowable by rule or ruling.
Its your call, judgement and all. Stand by your decision and make sure you have applied the rule then what ever you rule will stand.

Good luck and have a good game
Scott

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
... snip ... Therefore, as umpires, whether we like it or not, when we see a pitcher who is in violation of the pitching rule, we must call it. At the risk of sounding a little too much like Mike here, let me remind you that we are accepting the paycheck to do only one thing. Enforce the rules. We are not there to enforce only the ones we want to, nor are we there to rewrite the rule book. We are there, plain and simply, to enforce the rules of the association for which we are calling. To do otherwise is not only an injustice to the other members of the profession who do enforce the rules to the letter, but is accepting money under false pretenses.

If somebody had, in the past, the integrity to enforce the pitching rule on the pitcher that SCU mentions, then he wouldn't have felt in the quandry that he did when he knew he should be calling it.

We each must establish our own reputations as officials, for as you well know, all too often our reputations precede us. Do any of us really want to be viewed as an official who is soft on the rules or is easily intimidated? I don't think so. We all put way too much time and energy into this endeavor. I would rather be known as the hard *** umpire who is always fair in administering the rules, rather than everybody's buddy. We must start making the call, whatever it may be, even at the risk "rocking the boat." Until we do, this "look the other way" mentality will prevail.

Thanks for letting me rant.

Can we repost this every week or would IM charge too much?

[Skahtboi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

What a minute! Hmmm....do you owe me royalties for that?

Prolly.....

Seems someone is always in pockets anyway.

[Del-Blue]

Mike , don't read this.

If she rocks back, and her foot comes off of the pitching plate, she is illegal. If she rocks legally, and slides her foot forward, and her heel is still on the pitcher plate when she strides, even if she lifts her foot just a little, I would not call that. If she lifts her foot and slids it forward, so her entire foot is in front of the pitchers plate, I would call that illegal.

As the plate umpire, I would not call any pitch involving the feet of the pitcher except a pitcher that does not stay within the 24 inches of the pitchers plate. I am watching the ball, not her feet. That is up to the base umpire.

MOPO:: (My own personal opinion)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Del-Blue
Mike , don't read this.

If she rocks back, and her foot comes off of the pitching plate, she is illegal. If she rocks legally, and slides her foot forward, and her heel is still on the pitcher plate when she strides, even if she lifts her foot just a little, I would not call that. If she lifts her foot and slids it forward, so her entire foot is in front of the pitchers plate, I would call that illegal.

As the plate umpire, I would not call any pitch involving the feet of the pitcher except a pitcher that does not stay within the 24 inches of the pitchers plate. I am watching the ball, not her feet. That is up to the base umpire.

MOPO:: (My own personal opinion)

Bob,

I have no problem with anything you said here. A pitcher who slides their foot across the pitcher's plate is lifting a little, and if you can see definitive daylight, I would guess you are lying down to see it.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
... that we are accepting the paycheck to do only one thing. Enforce the rules. We are not there to enforce only the ones we want to, nor are we there to rewrite the rule book. We are there, plain and simply, to enforce the rules of the association for which we are calling...

Valid points, but perhaps overly simplistic. You only briefly touched upon one of the points I was trying to make. I believe your statement above should be, "[our job is] to enforce the rules as we are instructed to by the association for which we are calling." I agree with you that that is who we are working for.

In high school, the case book is a clarifying document that tells us how to interpret certain rules. Our local and state preseason meetings provide us with further clarification of how things are to be interpreted. Reviews, evaluations and other communications from our association officers during the year offer even more detailed clarification.

What should someone do when their organization is setting a precedence of calling certain rules a certain way, when that individual umpire feels differently? Almost no one has a problem with ignoring the uniform rule when it is a 32 degree night in early march, and they allow the players to wear un-matching jackets over their jerseys. Another example could be the many of us that have organizations teaching that the "neighborhood" front end of the double play at second is an out.

But there is conflict that can occur when a rule specific states something and the organization feels it should not be strictly enforced even when an individual umpire feels differently. There is bigger conflict that can occur when an organization allows something to continue unchecked during a whole season but one individual rules differently in the playoffs. This would cause a team to have no alternative method prepared. (In my example above, they had not trained the pitcher to pitch any other way than how she was.)

Is this fair? No. Was I part of the problem? Yes... probably. My refusal to go against the direction of an association officer (the UIC mentioned in my previous post) helped cause the problem. Should I have bucked the direction of the association officer? That is more philosophical than umpirical. (No, that's not a word, but it should be.)

I just wanted to point out regarding WestMichBlue initial post of this thread that there might be other things for an advanced umpire to consider when making a ruling of this type when the season is wrapping up and the teams are "now in a 'one loss and you're out' run towards the State Championship."

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by SC Ump
Valid points, but perhaps overly simplistic.

Perhaps because I feel it is a simple concept.

You only briefly touched upon one of the points I was trying to make. I believe your statement above should be, "[our job is] to enforce the rules as we are instructed to by the association for which we are calling." I agree with you that that is who we are working for.

What should someone do when their organization is setting a precedence of calling certain rules a certain way, when that individual umpire feels differently?

If the local organization is serving the greater good of the league(s) that they serve, then I would have no problem with towing the line. However, if they are merely skirting "controversial" rules to maintain their "good ol' boy" standing with players and coaches, then I have a big problem. There are always people at the state and national level of most sanctioning bodies who would frown if they were aware that the basic rules were being ignored to prevent a little on field irration.

Almost no one has a problem with ignoring the uniform rule when it is a 32 degree night in early march, and they allow the players to wear un-matching jackets over their jerseys.

Extenuating circumstance, but I grant you this. I would rather not be there at all on a night like that, though.

But there is conflict that can occur when a rule specifically states something and the organization feels it should not be strictly enforced even when an individual umpire feels differently. There is bigger conflict that can occur when an organization allows something to continue unchecked during a whole season but one individual rules differently in the playoffs. This would cause a team to have no alternative method prepared. (In my example above, they had not trained the pitcher to pitch any other way than how she was.)

I agree with you. That was the quandry that you had that I referenced in my earlier post. If, and that is a big if, the other umpires who had seen this pitcher had done their job, and if your association had seen to it that their umpires had done what they were being paid to do, then you would have readily, I do believe, called this pitch illegal even in a playoff or championship situation.

Should I have bucked the direction of the association officer? That is more philosophical than umpirical. (No, that's not a word, but it should be.)

I agree that this is a philosophical point. By the way, I like the word "umpirical." I think that I will start using it more and see if it finds it's way into the vernacular.

I just wanted to point out regarding WestMichBlue initial post of this thread that there might be other things for an advanced umpire to consider when making a ruling of this type when the season is wrapping up and the teams are "now in a 'one loss and you're out' run towards the State Championship."

I understand your point. And I agree that at that juncture in the season it is too late to start enforcing the rules as they should have been enforced all along. The point I was making, though, is that all too often I have heard, still do hear, and will probably always hear umpires make the excuse for not calling an illegal pitch based on the grounds that, in their opinion, she was not "gaining an advantage" by her illegal act. That is a cop out. We are not out there to find reasons not to enforce the rules. We are there to enforce the written code. All too often I have found that some officers of local associations, while quite astute socially and politically, are not the best arbiters of the rules. Often, the social skills that led them to hold an office in the association are the same reasons they balk at enforcing "unpopular" rules. They want to be liked by all. Before anyone misunderstands me, I know that this is not the norm for local association officers. My NFHS, ASA and USSSA chapters are staffed with dedicated folks who attend all the clinics and believe in what they are doing. I know that the majority of them out there are. However, I do speak from experience when I tell you that if the officers continually tell their officials to "look the other way" on various rulings, then it is either time to elect responsible individuals to their office, or else, as an individual umpire, to seek a local association that is more interested in professional development than social development.

[Edited by Skahtboi on Jun 1st, 2003 at 12:47 AM]