I recently started playing softball, after many many years of playing baseball growing up. I had a rather interesting play arise last night and was wondering if the umpire made the right call. I'm going to look bad here but i wanted other umpires opinions on the call...not me :).

There was a runner on 1st, 1 out. I was playing short, a batted ground ball was hit to our F4...I moved in position for a double play. I catch the ball slide across the rear of the base and drop my arm in typical shortstop fashion. The runner did not slide or attempt to get of the way. I make a poor throw but luckily the BR did not advance. My poor throw was because i had to short arm it so i didn't hit the runner on my follow through.

I calmly talked to the BU about the call, asking why it wasn't interference. He said there was no rule for him to slide he was just trying to get to second base. Now all my years playing baseball, we were taught to take the fielder out as a runner, but you did that sliding and doing everything you could while sliding into the base. As a fielder i was taught to drop my arm down to get that runner out of the way to make your throw.

Well this is a pretty low end league, i'm kind of shocked at the poor play, the runner probably didn't know any better. I told the umpire the next time it happened i was going to bury the ball in the runners face.

Well it happened again and I buried the ball in the runners nose and messed him up pretty good. I got ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct. I argued for a minute then left because i knew i had no leg to stand on, the call was made. My throw that hit the runner in the face would have gotten to first base, i made sure of that. I told the bloody and rather upset runner that sliding is a good idea...for both the runner and the fielder. I got heckled off the field looking like some bully when i was just playing hard ball like i was taught.

So my question is, do runners have to slide on a play that they can interfere with if they don't? IF not then why is it the fielders responsibilty to get out of the way to make a throw...I think it's ridiculous i got ejected...i think the umpire was showing me up because i told him he was wrong earlier.

Zoomie,
Softball & baseball are two very different games that have some parts that look similar. When you told the BU what you'd do the next time, that pretty much tied his hands as to what he had to do.

In softball, a retired runner is not expected or required to disappear in this play. There will not be an interference call unless this retired runner does something intentionally to interfere. We do not have a "force play slide rule" and never require that a runner slide - although the runner is required to slide or avoid if possible a collision.

Steve M

wow...softball really is a different game. This is really going to have to take some getting used to. How can a shortstop turn a double play, all your motion and movement goes over the bag right at the runner....It's such a fundamental thing for me to drop down, its like having to relearn the position again.

I guess i won't be burying any balls in peoples faces anymore.

So lets say i make an honest attempt at a double play with a 300 pounder lumbering down the base path...i make a sidearm throw around him and my arm hits the runner and i hurt my arm...where's the justification for my safety trying to make a play?

Oh well, I'm still using my little 11" baseball mitt, i gotta get something else. That lil thing is pretty tough witht hat big ball.

Feel kind of bad about breaking a guys nose...it would have never hit him though if he would have slid...or hell duck out of the way.

Why is that not interference?
Zoomie, I would have done the same thing. Once the runner is put out, he needs to vacate the base path to allow you to continue your play. He can slide or veer out of the way, anything else is INTERFERENCE.
I play and Umpire ASA Slowpitch. As the BU, I would have ruled interference. If the runner alters your throw, it's interference. Interference can occur a number of ways(Verbal, physical, or just being stupid), doesn't always have to be intentional.

IMHO, your BU blew it.

I played in a tournament a few years ago where a runner was killed by being hit in the face in the same scenario you described. F4 was taking the throw SS, automatically turned and fired to 1st. Runner was still upright, took the ball in the face. He was placed on life support for a few days before he died. F4 did not throw at him intentionally, just turned and fired. The runner left a wife and 2 young kids. Blame was never placed on F4 by anyone. It was something that just happened in a bang-bang play. F4, by his choice, did not play the rest of the tournament.
In your case though, you intentionally threw at someones face. You should feel lucky you were only thrown out for that game. If it was my league, you would never play there again. You said yourself, it is a low end league. Sounds to me like you joined the wrong league.

Speaking ASA

And you would also be wrong. There is NO requirement for a runner to slide or get out of the way of a fielder making a throw. And it DOES need to be intentional when involving a thrown ball. I suggest you check ASA 8.7.J.4.

BTW, Zoomie, at the lower levels, coaches have been ejected for instructing players to throw at runner without it even happening. http://www.mansun-nl.com/smilies/cussing.gif

You are actually lucky you were not arrested. The fact that you stated your intention to commit an act you knew would cause bodily harm and then followed through on the threat. If some of us had been on that field, we probably would have offered the player our card and told him to have his lawyer call us for the trial.

I understand you didn't know better, but you should be aware of the depth of the water before diving into any pool. http://www.mansun-nl.com/smilies/Thinkingof_.gifThe other players assume their opponents know how to play the game, it's not up to them or the umpires to give newcomers explicit instructions.

Good luck in the future. Remember, everyone needs to get up and go to work or school the next day, we're not making a living doing this.

Baseball, softball. Different game, different rules, different philosophies. (you know, I'm getting pretty good at this onehttp://www.mansun-nl.com/smilies/lol.gif)

Many softball players these days do not have much baseball experience and haven't learned the fine points and the "discipline" through thousands of hours of sandlot and other play. If you've played high-level baseball, you have to recognize this in your opponents (and teammates). For example, you can't simply bowl over any fielder who happens to be in your way.

I umpire a modified-pitch league in which the players range from former professional baseball players to Sunday picnic types. Do the former pros crash the catcher when he stands in the baseline and the ball isn't anywhere near? No.

A friend of mine still, 25 years later, has an obviously smashed eye from a throw from another friend of mine. Both were fine players. In fact, it was the same play described in this thread (unintentional on both their parts). The runner slid but didn't get far enough quite in time.

there was more to it than what i have said, some heated words between more than just myself and the opposing team. There were some other questionable acts by the other team, that i thought were pretty low. That's not the issue at hand though.

It was a long game, jawing and talking was ongoing. I'm not justifying what i did, i take full responsibilty, but given the same situation i'd be willing to bet one of there players would have done the same thing if not more. I didn't throw at him intentionally, i made a clear motion straight toward him and wanted to zing it by his head. He flinched...the wrong direction and it ended up catching his nose. For his sake it didn't hit him straight on...a glancing shot that careened to the pitcher. In any case, it hurt. They all wanted to beat my butt after the game, threats and stuff. I left it on the field where it belongs...just the way i was taught.

If i got kicked out of the league, suits me fine, so far i'm the best player we've come across yet. I've had guys from the other leagues(i guess the better divisions..i'm still new to this softball thing) come ask me to play for them. I haven't picked up a glove in about 4 years and am pretty rusty i think but apparently i misjudged the level of play. Some of these guys are really terrible.

I'm just gonna "enjoy" it and make my plays, if i can't turn a DP because of an obnoxious fool then what can i do, the rules seem to be clear (from what a couple of officials have referenced) that the fielder gets the short end of the stick here. Its just irritating, i like playing hard, i like playing rough, try and take me out you're supposed too. But don't just stand in the way like a tree, thats just ignorant, and in my opinion unsportsmanlike.

I play hockey recreationally as well, and well i'm pretty aggressive there too. I get in fights and play rough...but it's almost excepted that it stays on the ice, when the game's over i'll go BS with the other team and raz them...its all good fun. That other softball team took it too far and really got out of hand. I left it on the field, they didn't, too bad more people can't do that.

hey guys...what about fast pitch? is the rule the same there as well? And mod- pitch...what is that? I'm still kind of new at this softball thing. I miss baseball, it's a lot more familiar to me.

Oh and blue, i was asked to join the team. I know nothing about softball (its pretty clear now huh), i told the coach that i was pretty decent and could play good middle infield. He said he'd like me to come out. So i asked the wife, she said ok. If i would have known that softball was divided into divisions, and good players that play "good softball" aren't wanted in the lower divisions i would have declined the invite. I don't wanna leave my team hanging, i guess i'll just tone it down and play through it.

Now i'm sure the umpire has me marked and no calls will be coming my way any time soon. That's ok, they can only turn a table so far against you, especially in slow pitch, they can't take the bat out of your hands like baseball.

Softball is a great game, but it is not baseball, hockey, rugby, football, etc. If you are looking for a rough-and-tumble game, try one of those.

OTOH, if you can adjust your approach just a bit to drop the "take me out if you can, I'll take you out if I can, all's fair" that you learned in hockey and to some extent baseball, you can have a great time with this game.

Dakota,

Suggestion taken, i'll lower my tone a little.

From what i've seen so far softball is a very defensive minded game. Balls are hit into play many more times over than a baseball. So fielding and defense are crucial to winning. IF you can get good outs quick and stay in the batter box hittin the ball you're going to win ballgames.

So why have a rule that favors the hitters?...its already heavily skewed to there favor by chucking a HUGE ball slow as christmas at them. Our poor thirdbaseman is a sitting duck out there, a new meaning to the "hot corner".

What rules favor the hitters other than the equipment? BTW, the rules for ALL ASA ball are the same in this situation.

My problem here is that you may not have understood that softball is a recreational sport. There is a lot of give and take in softball, like not hitting up the middle.

But you wonder how the plays are made. It's simple, players practice. There is nothing you've asked here that is not routinely done in softball games from girls 12 years old to the seniors, some over 70.

Maybe to appreciate the game a bit more, you might need to go watch some good ball. Maybe some JO travel ball or some Major or A slow pitch, could give you a little more insight to the game.

hey zoomie, if slow-pitch is too slow, try to find a fast-pitch league. you'll get high competitiveness (nice word, i know). the ball may be bigger but they sure don't go as far or as hard as a baseball does. just a totally different sport, you can't really compare them, besides the basic touch all the bases : score a run.

sorry to sound judgemental, but you're kinda attacking my game, and that drives me crazy. i get that enough from the boys in my class. i love it when they actually step on the field, and realize that softball is a game. :)

whoa I'm not attacking anything. I think it's hard as hell to hit the ball. I get very impatient and basically am a slap hitter now. I was a power hitter in baseball, because i could make good contact and well the speed of the pitch with the hard ball makes it go.

Softball takes strength also, I don't have the muscles to jack it over the fence so i resort to basehitting. I watched a guy on the other team rip 3 over the fence, and i mean OVER the fence. He cleared the scoreboard!

To be honest I came here to clarify my question on the runners. I think its wrong and don't agree with it, but hey what i think is irrelavent. I didn't come here to bash softball, just wanted an answer and for the most part i got it. thanks guys


IRISHMAFIA,

The rule of the runner getting out of the way is what i'm questioning. The play that i got upset about last night was when i went to throw the ball, there runner pulled up and stopped right in the baseline, about 3 feet from me. If I were to follow through my motion i would have surely collided with him, atleast my arm or hand. He proceeded to nice and easy glide through the base and make a u turn.

That is an unsafe practice that i find unacceptable, its not right, its not sportsmanlike, its against everything i was ever taught. Maybe i don't take this lightly because i play middle infield and have dealt with this situation for years.

And this players practicing??? Are you saying I don't practice? I've played hardball for twenty years, i played in college for 2 years...i've done my share of practicing.

The runner is permitted to be there. He has as much right to be there as you do to make a play. You must agree that it is the runner's responsibility to make every effort to attain the base to which he is advancing. Would you stop running just because you saw the SS heading toward the bag to put you out? That said, you cannot expect an advancing runner to simply vanish into thin air the moment he is retired. You see him, you know he is there or you wouldn't be making the play. You adjust. If you are approaching a green light and a car is stopped in front of you in your lane, do you just plow into it because you don't believe they should be there? No, you go around.

Quote:

That is an unsafe practice that i find unacceptable, its not right, its not sportsmanlike, its against everything i was ever taught. Maybe i don't take this lightly because i play middle infield and have dealt with this situation for years.

What makes you so arrogant to think that just because you have learned one way, that is the correct way and the rest of the world is wrong? You make a threat to plant a ball in a player's face and then proceed to do so, then you call the player who is doing exactly what every runner has been taught to do "unsportsmanlike"? Until you learn the game of softball, you don't know what sportsmanship is. This is a game where you do not intentionally throw at runners. It is a game in which you are ejected for running into a defender. It is a game that most players understand is still a game and only part of their lives, not the life itself.

[/quote]And this players practicing??? Are you saying I don't practice? I've played hardball for twenty years, i played in college for 2 years...i've done my share of practicing. [/QUOTE]

No, you've been practicing to play BASEBALL and that doesn't mean squat if you are not practicing to play the game correctly.

What I was referring to was if you are so good and so right and practice so much, why is it you are whining about not being able to execute a play which thousands of softball players, male and female, from the ages of 11 through 70 execute on a daily basis without hitting a runner with the ball? Are you saying that your play is not up to snuff with that of a 12 year old school girl? I will say it again. Different game, different rules, different philosophies.

The other players are not out of sync, you are and you need to adjust. BTW, just because you move to a team with better players, everything that has been state by the posters throughout this thread will still apply. It is the game that is different, not the players.

1) If I believed the first threat, you probably would have been ejected then and never had the chance to be violent and get arrested.

2) Either change your attitude or change your sport.

I don't know - it sounds like Zoomie stepped right out of one of Ed's AA stories :D

Zoomie - step back and re-read your posts. Maybe you'll see how bad they sound. You're the best thing the league has seen??? I wonder if the guy with the broken nose feels the same way? Think about it - he came to the game the other night for a little fun, maybe grab a few beers after the game. He stops short to avoid a collision and what's his reward??? I've gotta tell ya - if that was me and I heard your earlier comment, I'd be looking for a lawyer.

My daughter plays fastpitch at a very competitive level, and if she ever took the field with your attitude - I don't know who would kick her in the a$$ first - me or her coaches.

-Kono

I can tell you he didn't stop short because of a collision, he stopped short because he was out by a mile, and then pulled up without getting out of my way. He would have smirked about it had i made a poor throw. Turns out it hit him instead.

This isn't a typical beer swilling lets go have fun league. These guys were pompous pricks. I'm dropping this thread, its over nothing can be done about it now. Looks lik this is getting touchy, nowing my luck i'll get banned for ticking off the wrong "veteran" here. I'll stick to reading the posts instead of asking anything, I'll let you guys do the bickering, i'm done with this.

So what if he smirked? If you had adjusted your position and nailed the double play, then you could have smirked. Besides, it didn't "turn out" to hit him; by your own admission, it was intentional.

I haven't noticed any bickering. Anyone else notice any bickering?
Lecturing, sure. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Miscguy2.gif
Pontificating, maybe.
A little condescension.
But no bickering.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota

Quote:

Originally posted by zoomie Lecturing, sure. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Miscguy2.gif Pontificating, maybe. A little condescension. But no bickering.

That's funny - thanx for the laugh!!! :p

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota

Quote:

I haven't noticed any bickering. Anyone else notice any bickering? Lecturing, sure. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Miscguy2.gif Pontificating, maybe. A little condescension. But no bickering.

Hey!!! I resemble those remarks!!!

They only bickering has come from the person asking the question who acknowledging noted that the original post would make him look bad.

Well, I guess he was right about one thing.

I can take the heat, i was wrong i admitted it, i just asked for your guys opinions on the call and what the proper ruling is. I didn't want this to go into how an awful player i am, i should be arrested, jailed for life, beaten with a cane....etc.

I think you guys are reading a lot more into this. It just one play of many that were "controversial" and the ONLY one that i took part in. I didn't argue with the ump...for very long. The first time i CALMY talked to him...just asking him why the guy didn't have to slide. I said well what happens if the next time it hits the guy in the face? I'll admit i was implying i was going to do it. The ump said there was no need for that. I said ok and walked away.

When the guy got hit he tossed me and my only retort was why didn't the guy slide, duck, hell attempt to move. The ump just told me to leave and i jogged off the field. My teammates were pissed, but i just blew it off. There was one out remaining, we won by 6 runs.

I left to taunts, death threats, you should have seen my wife, they had her balling. And you guys are treating me like the villian here? What about the elbows they threw around at the play at the plate...they were the bullies...think of my gesture as david and goliath i got my jab in when i did because they had 10 in on us before me.

Anyways guys, i'll take note that i have to run 3 steps out of the way because the runner is to clean to dirty his uniform any. Ok, Ok, that was cheap. I'll rail myself for that one. Take it easy fellas.

Maybe planet!, but don't change your story in midstream. Don't stop posting, because you keep us aware of what's wrong with the world. Did someone say he wasn't whining?

Retaliation and deliberate throws at anyone have no place in sports, even MLB or contact sports.:mad:

As to "just one play of many that were "controversial" and the ONLY one that i took part in"; that's like being in the mob and saying this was the only murder I did. :mad:

what does planet mean? oh ok after looking at it for a minute i see now. man you guys are harsh. i'm outta here.

[Edited by zoomie on May 30th, 2003 at 02:19 PM]

Congratulations! Posting this thread took lots of guts. Often times we have all done something in haste which we have lived to regret. I shall cast no stones. Try to put it behind you. Sounds as if you are passionate about the sport, play hard and try to have fun.

First seasons can be pretty tough, as well as eye-opening. Remember if you will any first season in the sports you have mentioned. You weren't always the best player out there, nor will you ever be. Be patient with yourself and your teammates. By your own admission there is much room for improvement. You might be a hotshot SS but hitting that fat ball with a skinny bat can be a bit tricky. Even the best players continually hone that skill.

In sports, as in life, you reap what you sow, be it skill, or good sportsmanship. Best of luck. Hang in there.

Let's not knock baseball needlessly....
 

I've made a serious effort to try to understand softball a bit better this season. I made myself available to work HS softball (a 1-year experiment in which I worked 3 varsity SB games), so I've been lurking here for quite some time. Some comments on this thread from a baseball umpire who calls adult recreation baseball (MSBL):

(1) We have non-collision rules. We call it the go-to-work-on-Monday rule. We don't tolerate guys like the original poster acting like this -- this is not the 1970 AllStar game and our players aren't named Fosse or Rose.

(2) Anyone who said something like the original poster did risks ejection, just for saying what he said. I will not allow a situation escalate into a potential beanball war so a SS can act macho. He will at least get some comment from me, warning of ejection if the play happens again.

(3) Adults are not as athletic as the youngsters at times. Throw around the friggin runner. Any semi-talented fielder would've come through the base and made the play anyway.

Baseball is a different sport, but I don't think it is as different as some of you think. It takes hard work to umpire both sports well and constant study to know the rule sets and mechanics inside and out. At high levels, both are a joy to work. At low levels, both can be quite painful at times.

At the recreation level, let's just have a little fun and not get anyone hurt or bloodied.

Rich

Rich,

As you know, I'm a refugee from baseball. That was my choice and I have no problem with those who stay with it.

I don't think anyone was knocking baseball, just noting that they are different games and they do have different rules. Obviously, Zoomie doesn't think it's the same game and referred to the other players as unsportsmanlike. A tough accusation to buy from a kid who thinks throwing a ball at a runner is permissible.

Depending on the level of ball, different philosophies certainly exist.

The point most of us were making was that this young man jumped into a game he had not yet learned to play, assuming that everything he knew in baseball applied to softball. Obviously, it doesn't. Many of us grew up the same way, some considering softball a game for those who aren't good enough for baseball.

The rules were explained to him and the reasoning behind the rules. It was explained why the other players reacted the way they did and how some of us would have handled the situation given the fact he wasn't smart enough to keep his thoughts to himself. And, in turn, acting on that threat.

Many of us have probably heard this from players before. When I do (a couple of dozen times in the past decade), I simply tell that player, loud enough for the next closest player to hear, that if he follows through, he will be ejected and I will offer a statement to the police if it goes that far.

Was anyone overly harsh on this young man? Somewhat, but I think that was more to demonstrate the severity of his actions and attempt to defend them by using his baseball experience.

If you noticed, many urged him to learn more about the game and understand the differences.