What do you have?
 

Here's the lineup. Assuming slow pitch and not using the Extra Player.

Abel
Baker
Charlie
David
Edward
Frank
George
Henry
Isaiah
Jacob

Subs
----
Kevin

In the 2nd inning Kevin subs in for Baker. In the 3rd inning Baker re-enters. In the 4th inning Kevin again subs in for Baker. In the 5th inning Baker returns again. Baker hits a single driving in R1 on 3rd. Baker is on first base when the defense protests Baker's re-entry.

What do you have and how do you handle it? ASA rules apply.

Interesting
 

Why game over?

No legal substitute. Of course, a decent umpire would never allow this to occur.

Yes, but they can play shorthanded
 

This isn't an ejection. This is a DQ. SP can play with 9.

No more shorthand rule?

Of course a decent umpire wouldn't declare a forfeit.

You are absolutely correct, I jumped the gun. But still, a decent umpire would not permit this to happen.

A decent umpire wouldn't let Baker re-enter. Baker could be an unreported substitute (who happens to be illegal in this case), which should not be acted upon if the umpire notices it. Let the defense protest.

I agree
 

A decent umpire would notice this and try to prevent it. "Coach, you're sure you want to do this? Baker can't re-enter legally." If the coach insists do we allow him to and then wait for the protest? In ASA the umpire is not allowed to rule on this until a team appeals. I believe all we can legally do is inform the coach of the infraction and if he insists allow it. Maybe we could do so in such a loud voice as to give a clue to the other team? Or just inform the other team "Baker is re-entering again." and hope the other team realizes what has just happened. Maybe put a slight emphasis on the word "Again". I'm joking of course. We can't do anything to tip off the other team of an infraction that must be appealed by the defense.

Never going to permit something like this to occur if I know it shouldn't and is a violation. Coach doesn't like it, I can always talk to the new head coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Illegal re-entry, Baker DQ, game over, no run.

My mistake, thinking DQ was sub required.

Most codes to encourage umpires to prevent violations. I get that. But where is the responsibility for the coaches' to do what is correct? Have you or any other umpires you know made the incorrect ruling or not permitted something that was legal?

I have seen this far too often. Of course, shame on the official for not knowing the rules, but I'm realistic and as we see here on the forum, not every ruling is correct, either because we don't know it, shoot from the hip, or confuse codes.

More than once I've had to address lineup changes with an umpire who didn't allow a team to have the DP play defense and leave the Flex in the game.

I like to prevent headaches whenever possible in most circumstances. But why do we go out of our way to help a coach not commit a violation when they coach questions our strike zone, judgment, rules knowledge, etc.? The quicker the coach is to question our calls, the quicker they probably are to ask for our help on a rule.

The rule book takes care of violations by allowing a protest and the implication of penalties.

Many of us say, "Well, I'm comfortable doing it because I know the rules." The problem is that there are so many others who say that who really do not know the rules.

Saying something like, "Coach, it's your decision, but you may want to consult with your assistant and/or the rule book before doing that" usually makes the coach question themselves strongly enough that they just don't make the change. I will never tell a coach, "No, you can't do that" if they insist though. Umpires aren't there to bail out coaches for dumb decisions. They'll learn soon enough.

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

Different issue. BOO involves players who are legally in the game and nothing involving the umpire.

A player attempting to illegally re-enter the game or not reporting is a direct attempt to circumvent the rules which includes the umpire's involvement and maintenance of the line up.

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

I think that a lot of people "prevent" the problem because they are helping the team out. What they don't realize is that they are pissing off the other team who was looking forward to getting the benefit of knowing the rules and protesting the game. I lean more and more toward letting the teams screw it up. They think we screw up all the time. Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

I understand your point and have had this debate with numerous people. An overwhelming majority would rather know they are making a mistake before they make it than after. Not one person said, "Let then screw up so I can appeal and get their player out of the game."

I am in favor of telling the coach at the time that what they are about to do is illegal and then let them decide. If they want to break the rules at that point, that is on them.

Yes.

No. :(

Generalization from a specific. :rolleyes:

If a coach reports a change which is not allowed, it is my responsibility to reject it. That is part of why changes are reported.

Actually, yes, it is.

There are rules regarding coaching errors, but if a coach tries to give me an illegal substitute, I'm going to head it off at the pass before it becomes a big fustercluck.

That's something you can and should prevent.

So then what would you do if given an illegal substitution?

If you're just going to sit back and watch the fustercluck begin, then you're just there to collect a paycheck.

So you're saying that you wouldn't inform the coach that what s/he's asking to do is not legal?

And yes, that is my perspective and my not-so-humble opinion. I won't go out of my way to save a coach from him/herself, but I also won't let this happen. That's a fustercluck that never ends well.

Actually, it hasn't happened to me, but thanks for asking.

Back to my question to you.

Yes or no: you're saying that you wouldn't inform the coach that what s/he is asking to do is illegal? If what you're saying is "no," then how do you handle it?

I have read everything you typed. You haven't said anything at all, and you're dodging the question.

Yes or no: would you inform the coach that what s/he is asking to do is illegal?

Because I don't watch just my games.

Your turn to answer my question with a yes or no answer.

This isn't answering the question, nor is it informing the coach that s/he's about to do something illegal. You're only confirming that they're sure that they want to enter that particular player into the game, nothing more. They MIGHT get the hint, but in all likelihood, they won't.

So in other words, your answer is "no." Just come out and say it. "No."

Don't know why you have to be so vague about it.

That's how you make it clear. You kept dodging the question.

I agree that we should not be in the business of coaching. We're not coaches, we're umpires.

However, I completely disagree that we should not inform the coach that what they are about to do is illegal. This falls into the category of "preventative umpiring," and there is absolutely nothing wrong with preventing a coach from willfully violating the rules of the game. This isn't coaching, this is umpiring.

"Baker has already re-entered the game once before, coach. You can't re-enter him a second time. Please give me someone else, coach."

And I think that by allowing this to take place, you are knowingly permitting said inequity.

What he did was knowingly let one team intentionally break the rules in the hope that the other team would catch the cheating, call them on it so he can dump players and probably a coach.

So, when the first coach is breaking the rules and the second coach is either too distracted or rule knowledge lacking, he will allow the first team to intentionally cheat.

None of that should have to happen.

Which, to me, is taking the path of least resistance. Rather than confront the coach who is (knowingly or unknowingly) attempting to cheat, they're hoping the opposing team won't catch the illegal re-entry.

Head it off at the pass, keep the integrity of the game. That's our job.

Have you perhaps run this one up the flagpole? I suspect your association / state / whatever doesn't want you failing to handle this easily defusable situation.

I don't believe this pertains to college, but at high school and above, across multiple sports and levels, the general protocol is to prevent a disqualifiable offense if possible - and the OP certainly not only applies, but is often the example used to illustrate this point.

If this illegal substitution was reported, and I screwed it up by allowing it, then heck yes, I deserve the CF and the reprimand that will likely be coming. If it was not reported and THAT is the reason it "slipped by me", then how could the umpire be faulted when it was the failure to report that caused the CF.

Let me make this real simple for you as it pertains to ASA. And this is the "official" line, has been covered at numerous national, regional and state-level clinics from more than qualified clinicians:

You never take a change that you know is not legal.

You can do with it what you please, but there is no denying this statement is absolutely accurate. It is part of Game Management and Line-up Card Maintenance.

If you like, I will ask the NFHS rep for my area tonight and I'm willing to bet I will get the same answer.

I am probably one of the elder (chronologically) umps lurking.

At the higher levels, I have actually had coaches purposely try or had to do illegal moves with their lineup. I have had them tell me that they know what they are doing is illegal but they are doing it anyway. Keep your mouth shut. It is the job of the other coach to catch them. You can not tell them they may not do it. If they do not do this, they may have to forfeit.
I would just ask them rather strongly: "Are you sure you want to do this coach?" Then go about my business.

I guess it may be dependent at what level you are talking though.
I am all for preventive umpiring but you can only intercede so much.
You can not coach for them.

If you can sort of steer away from a cluster, it would probably be wise but sometimes you have to keep your place.
Remember the old saying in ball is: :"It ain't cheating if you don't get caught."

I guess this is a "sticky wicket."

Hmmm... Love those that answer a questions completely wrong, defend their inane position until their are beaten to submission, then retreat to the "they don't do it that way in the ABCDE league". Don't come on here, answer an ASA question with blatant stupidity and then claim the reason for your answer is that other groups don't agree with ASA.

(And incidentally, all but NCAA and professional that I've come across subscribe to the "prevent a disqualification" mentality at the very least... and in many cases, simply "prevent the foul/rule breakage/whatever if you can" mentality.)

Did not realize this was ASA specific.
I must admit I was not giving an ASA sanctioned answer.
As for ASA, I am no expert.

Respectfully,

Bill

Two things.

1 - What you describe is an incompetent umpire, as they are unable to maintain a proper line-up card. No forum in the world can correct this, and there's no point in discussing that any further.

2 - What you're saying is that the second coach has re-entered a player a second time, KNOWING that I just had a conversation with the opposing team manager whereby I told him/her s/he can't do this. In that case, s/he willfully violated the rules, and s/he deserves everything the rule book says s/he does. I'd have zero sympathy for a coach who confesses this tidbit of information to me by making such an accusation.

I'd certainly deserve the chewing by my UIC afterward, but it still falls on the coach to make sure they play fairly and legally. This is why ASA gives teams a copy of the rule book upon registration, and the rule is written so simply and plainly that there should be no confusion regarding the re-entry of a player.

Brain farts happen, sure... And maybe "incompetent" is a bit strong a word. But we should make every effort to maintain a proper line-up card, even if that means delaying the game a moment to make sure everything is legit. If an umpire rushes through this process, that's a bad sign for that umpire.

Take the time to make sure you've got a properly-maintained line-up card. The game can wait.

So I attend the state NFHS clinic tonight, open the NFHS 2012 Softball Preseason Guide and what do I see? An article titled "Guidelines for a Well-Kept Lineup Card with paragraph 8 reading, "Do not accept or allow changes that are illegal. If you are not sure, consult with your crew members before allowing the change. It's acceptable to explain what is legal to a questioning coach."

*gasp* Say it ain't so! :eek: :D

And then from Section 6, Line-up Card Management of the ISF Umpire Manual: "Do not accept changes that you know are illegal."

You can subtract NCAA from that list, too. The SUP, as well as the CCA manual, has stated the same philosophy as others, do not knowingly allow an illegal change. That isn't coaching, it is preventative officiating. By the vast majority opinion.

Sounds to me like NSA stands alone, if that is even their actual philosphy.

Had I called you that, I'd apologize. I did not.

Even smart people say things that are blatantly stupid sometimes - doesn't make them blatantly stupid any more than their being smart makes their stupid comment something other than stupid.

I used to do tech support at a major university. I can totally vouch for this. :D

Who would have thunk it!
 

Who would have thought that a simple post on an illegal re-entry would turn into a thread with 62 replies?

OK, so the general consensus is don't allow it. Mike even furnished some information from ASA to not knowingly allow a illegal substitution. Good enough for me. Now, do you actually prevent the batter from batting? What if the coach, after he has been told this is illegal, agrees not to officially make the substitution, but still tells his player to go bat. Are you going to remain quiet at this time and allow the girl to bat, knowing that she can't legally? You didn't allow the substitution. Your line up card reflects the previous line up. You made no announcement to the score keeper or to the other team. I think at this point we have done all we can and now it is on the other coach to catch the illegal re-entry.

To Continue this idea
 

Hey, look I'm quoting myself! Sorry, I digress!

Alright, so lets say you don't allow the illegal re-entry in the 4th inning. Suppose the coach attempts this again in the 6th, but this times does not inform you of the substitution. So now we have an unreported substitute. If the opposing coach comes out to appeal, what do you do? Does the coach have to use the correct verbiage? What if the coach says I want to appeal an unreported sub? Do we rule on that alone and not rule on the illegal re-entry until the coach appeals that infraction? Or do we go straight to the more egregious infraction of an illegal re-entry?

This appears to me to be similar to a coach appealing a player missing a base. The coach can't simple say, "Blue, the runner missed a base". They have to say what base they missed. They can't guess. The ASA manual specifically says not to allow guessing games.

There is another solution to this issue....

Coach: I want to re-enter Baker
Ump: Sorry, coach, you can't do that. Baker has already used his re-entry.
Coach: I want to do it anyway.
Ump: Coach, I am not going to allow you to do that.
Coach: Re-enter Baker...Baker, get up to bat!

Ump: Coach, you're ejected. (to new head coach): did you have any legal lineup changes for me?

(Repeat as necessary)

It is considered unsportsmanlike conduct to disregard an umpires directives.

I agree
 

But this doesn't address my last post. They are not substituting. They are just putting her in without notifying you. Now you have an unreported sub.
In ASA the umpire does not have the authority to rule on this until an appeal is made by the defense.

I disagree. This is a coach violating the rules of the game after you already informed the coach the attempted re-entry was illegal. Telling a coach their actions were illegal is the same as a "warning" of the same. If you discover that player attempting to return to the game, I will probably walk over to the coach and offer a reminder of the previous conversation and the opportunity to put a legal substitute in place or play shorthanded, if that is available. If the player is already in the game........forfeiting the game is not beyond the realm of appropriate action.

And for those who want to bring in the "protest" into play, I'm not acting on 4.6.F.4, but 5.4.F. We are not talking about a "gotcha" type of rule, but a coach who, after being told his actions would be a rule violation willfully and with full intent repeated that action.

Don't want to, but this is why I stopped him/her the first time. This isn't an "oh, I forget" or "sorry, I didn't know" situation, this guy/gal blatantly cheated not only the opponent, but his own team.

I know its well documented that the original post was regarding ASA......

However, as to the above, in NSA, you do NOT need an appeal. ANYONE may point out the infraction. Including the guilty team. An unreported sub is an "illegal substitution with the penalty - IMMEDIATE EJECTION FROM THE GAME WHENEVER THE INFRACTION IS DISCIVERED."
Caps are in the book.

Please look in the book before you make statements.
Page 102 is on line at the NSA web sight and it does need to be appealed.
May not be ASA, USSSA, GSA, NCAA, Federation, etc. but right or wrong, that is what it is in NSA.

Respectfully,

Bill, only Bill

Thanks for the post, but my post and quotation stands:

Page 101
Rule 4
Sec. 5
"The manager or team representative shall notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Failure to notify the umpire of a substitution would create an illegal substitution with the penalty - IMMEDIATE EJECTION FROM THE GAME WHENEVER THE INFRACTION IS DISCOVERED."

I was posting in reference to unreported sub as is quoted in my post:
Originally Posted by rwest
But this doesn't address my last post. They are not substituting. They are just putting her in without notifying you. Now you have an unreported sub.
In ASA the umpire does not have the authority to rule on this until an appeal is made by the defense.

The rule you site on page 102 is Rule 4 Sec. 7 which governs "illegal player."

By the way:
In youth play, with an unreported sub, you only have an ejection of the coach. No further "on field" remedy is called for, ie: there is no player ejection, no outs, etc.

^^^^As stated by others.....this is how I would also handle the situation. Along with the (Repeat as necessary) step.

Joel